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Kai Wisdom and Fighting Fantasy Mailing List paraphernalia #5

Has anyone else on the list played the Deathtrap Dungeon game either for PC
or Playstation? I have the PC version, which I am currently playing (I'm on
the penultimate level).

When I first heard it was being developed I was naturally very excited (more
so because of the fact that Ian Livingstone was playing a role in its
development). I'd certainly recommend you play it if you can. However, if
you are looking for a direct book-to-game translation, you'll be
disappointed. I was hoping it would, at least vaguely, follow the book, but
it didn't.

You do get to fight Orcs, Snake-Women, Medusae, Rat-Men, Dragons and Pit
Fiends, using a variety of weapons and spells, but I feel that the only
similarity between the book and the game is the title. One good aspect is
the introductory scene where you are whisked through the city of Fang at
night and catch a glimpse of Baron Sukumvit himself, before descending into
the dungeon and watching some inexperienced adventurer get his ass kicked by
a combination of Skeletons, a Pit Fiend, and oh yeah, a War Pig (don't ask).

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good game, but Fighting Fantasy fans may
just feel a little let down. The whole place is too 'spacy' if that's the
correct term. There are very few long, narrow tunnels and it doesn't seem
maze-like at all.

But I suppose had they stuck rigorously to following the book, the game may
have been too boring and uneventful (books and computer games are quite
different beasts).

So, for me: loved the book, not quite sure about the game.

By the way, there is no mention of 'Fighting Fantasy' anywhere in the game
or the literature which accompanied it, completing its disassociation with
the book.

Anyway, I've waffled enough...

Ta.

Richard Stanton

You enjoyed it???  I thought it was absolutely pathetic...  Tomb Raider 1 (same
company - Eidos) had better graphics, and a much better layout, technically
speaking...  The fighting is sloppy and un-responsive...  The directional
controls were unrefined...  This game (IMO) is so bad, that I didn't even bother
keeping the saved game when I cleaned up my system...

As someone who has worked in the computer game field for almost a decade...  I
say "This game is bad"...

If you're enjoying it, I'm happy for you...  But be aware that there is MUCH
better software out there...  Just avoid Sierra...

Jason Williams

I thought Deathtrap Dungeon on PC was extremely good. It kept me going for 
at least a month and a half (replayed it many times). And it does have 
better graphics than Tomb Raider 1, you obviously haven't played this using 
a 3D Accelerator.
Yes, the controls are very bad...i was extremely pissed that you couldn't 
use a mouse to control movement (like in Heretic 2), but at least you could 
customize your controls to your own liking. The only real annoying things 
about Deathtrap Dungeon are the camera angles, especially when you are about 
to make a heroic leap across a chasm, the camera would change, and you would 
sometimes lose total control, and fall to your death...or close to it. And 
the other thing is the multiplayer mode...my friend and i sat there for 
several minutes hacking pointlessly at each other. Because of the controls, 
it is almost impssible to hit something while it is constantly moving.
Also, why the hell would we want to avoid Sierra? In case you are not aware, 
they created the best game ever(along with Valve) - Half Life!

Snake-women are similar to the Justrali Warriors from Temple of Terror, with 
the body of a snake and head and arms of a woman. They use a morning star as 
a weapon. A War-Pig is a psycho pig from another dimension, with dynamite 
strapped to their backs, and one sole purpose in life...to explode, 
preferably with other lifeforms nearby. You can use them in the game to 
throw at people.

The bloodbeast also looks extremely cool.

Well...I think I'll go play Deathtrap Dungeon now.

Lachlan Austin

Lachlan Austin wrote:

> The Fighting Fantasy Mailing List - http://www.fightingfantasy.com
>
> I thought Deathtrap Dungeon on PC was extremely good. It kept me going for
> at least a month and a half (replayed it many times). And it does have
> better graphics than Tomb Raider 1, you obviously haven't played this using
> a 3D Accelerator.

Which one...  My Orchid (Voodoo), PowerColor (Voodoo2) or AGP Millennium G200
(D3D)???  I obviously have played this with 3DFx...  OK...  Maybe some of the
graphics are better then those found in Tomb Raider...  But it annoys me to no
end when you see two walls, only a pixel thick, that don't join together to form
a solid corner (so you can see into the room, or blackness, behind it)...
That's just sloppy programming...

> Yes, the controls are very bad...i was extremely pissed that you couldn't
> use a mouse to control movement (like in Heretic 2), but at least you could
> customize your controls to your own liking.

Sure...  Customizability is nice, but when the game is as unresponsive as DD, it
doesn't really matter...  Plus, pretty much, every game has customizable
controls now...

> The only real annoying things
> about Deathtrap Dungeon are the camera angles, especially when you are about
> to make a heroic leap across a chasm, the camera would change, and you would
> sometimes lose total control, and fall to your death...or close to it.

A nice feature except for that fact...  When you're doing precision steps, and
your whole frame of reference shifts...  Very annoying...  And often fatal...
Also, I felt that the camera angles often hid massive areas of the rooms, so it
was very tough to plan your path...

> And the other thing is the multiplayer mode...my friend and i sat there for
> several minutes hacking pointlessly at each other. Because of the controls,
> it is almost impssible to hit something while it is constantly moving.

Combat was a bad joke...  Especially multi player...  Absolutely no skill
whatsoever, because the controls were so poor...

> Also, why the hell would we want to avoid Sierra? In case you are not aware,
> they created the best game ever(along with Valve) - Half Life!

Well, I could go into a 10 page spiel about how a distributor is different from
the programmer...  But I won't...  Half Life is not a Sierra title...  They just
pay the programming team who created it a flat fee, plus royalties, for whatever
they put out...  Sierra's in-house development team is among the worst in the
computer world (Lords of the Realm, Larry series 5-7, etc.)...  What I hate most
about Sierra is not their programs (lots of companies produce crap)...  But
Sierra pays HUGE amounts to game magazines to promote their products...  I've
never seen a Sierra game rated fairly (or accurately)...  Call this the
Microsoft syndrome...  Here is a great example:

FrontPage Sports Football by Dynamix (distributed by Sierra)...  Best sports sim
on the market (including all EA Sports series)...

Sierra does not renew the Dynamix contract last year, but claim all marketing
rights (packaging design) and rights to reverse engineer the FPS engine...
Thoroughly slimy...  But they had to rename it, FrontPage Sports was trademarked
by Dynamix...  So it became Sierra Football Pro '99 (gotta let people know it's
a Sierra product)...

Two magazines were calling this "Football Simulator of the Year", 5 stars and
all the other crap...

The game is unplayable...  Period...  It crashes no less then once every two
games, after an 8 Mb patch, and 4 more core updates, they decided that the game
was unfixable...  So they actually recalled this "Flawless, 5-star" game (which
I have a little respect for)...  Although, 4 months later, I'm still waiting for
my refund...

I don't really have a grudge against Sierra, I just despise companies that
purchase popular opinion, and don't produce an acceptable product...  See
Microsoft (who I loathe with every bone in my body) for another example of
this...
--
Jason Williams

hi all.
as for your comments about deathtrap dungeon there has been many
fighting fantasy games over here in uk.there was a warlock of firetop
mountain,wihch was on the zx spectrum about 1985ish,was a basic maze
game with monsters.there was also rebel planet,temple of terror and
seas of blood which were all text adventure games which were quite
good.you can download a zx spectrum emulater and probably those games
on various related websites.
hope this is useful 
neil taylor

I remember seeing the Warlock of Firetop Mountain game in the early-to-mid
80s. It was accompanied by the book itself in the package, which I thought
was a good idea as it would "spread the word" of FF to non-believers, so to
speak. Even before that, Milbourne House released a "the Hobbit" game (which
followed the book to a surprisingly huge degree), and the book was part of
the package there too.

Enter Deathtrap Dungeon... wouldn't it have been neat if they had included
the book there too? Imagine what it could have done as far as "recruitment"
to the series go. I imagine it wouldn't have been impossible to fit a book
in the package either, and still sell the box as it was sold today.

However... yes, I am aware that the link between the book and the game is
weak - remove the cool intro with Fang and Baron Sukumvit and it is pretty
close to non-existing. Maybe adding the book would just have been adding to
the dissappointment for those who hoped that the link would be stronger
(including myself). Still, it would have been a great marketing stunt for
the FF series - if they wanted it.

But I guess the days when they include the book the game is based on are
gone...

Cheers,
Svein

Well my copy of the game *DID* come with a copy of Deathtrap Dungeon the
book! Yes, and also some cards, for playing Deathtrap Dungeon the card game.
I believe every PC version (at least in the UK) has these included. The
cards themselves are very cool, featuring Skeletons, Orcs, Bloodbeasts and a
whole host of other nasties.

The book itself is identical to all the other copies, except the cover. No
longer the Bloodbeast, but the skull with the red glowing eye, and the title
'Deathtrap Dungeon' is printed as it is on the box itself. I must admit, I
wasn't expecting to find these things inside, but there they were!

Oh, and the book has a black and white picture of Ian on the back, relaxing
in a chair. Also, the list of other Fighting Fantasy books inside only
includes up to (51) Plague (Island?) of the Undead.

Interesting huh?

Ta.

Richard Stanton

hi
they did re release the book with the deathtrap game.it had  a new
cover,wit the skull on it,it was only with the pc version though,there
was also a card game with it.
neil taylor

I remember that in its first week or two, the Deathtrap Dungeon game did 
include the book (PC only). It was a special edition version and might have 
had a slightly different box design (not sure). However, I didn't have the 
$89 to buy it at the time and had to wait a little while longer, and bought 
the version without the book.
This adds another mystery, if it did have a copy of the book included, why 
didn't they (Puffin Books) start reprinting the rest of the series at the same time?

Lachlan Austin

Puffin Books did not publish the Deathtrap Dungeon computer game, Eidos did. This 
is significant.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Do publication rights belong to the publisher, or the author???  From what is
said below, it looks like it's the author...  That also explains why the cover
would have to be changed, that artwork, and text layout would be copyrighted by
the publisher...  If it was Eidos who did the actual publishing (I'd assume thru
some no-name printer), that would explain why they only ran enough to put with
the games (they are not a book company), and also provides an answer as to
whether we'll be seeing any more FF for a while...

Jason Williams

I think the book was just meant as a promotional tie-in or extra, not a
desire to reprint the entire series. Don't forget the Chairman of EIDOS
happens to be Mr. Livingstone, who also wrote the book and "invented" the
FF concept, so I'm sure he's got a lot of pull, especially in his own
company. Just a thought.

Mark J. Popp

Jenn L. & Svein B. wrote on Jul 6:

>If yes: evidently it is possible to get the rights (maybe through licensing)
>to publish books from the series. I wonder if some publisher would be
>interested in doing so to get the books back in print again - and maybe even
>continue the series!

Rights always revert to the author after a book has been out of print for a certain 
amount of time; this is how I am able to publish Heart of Ice (assuming all goes well).

>If no: then the book must have been especially printed for the game by
>Puffin. Why not make available regular copies by themselves as well, if
>nothing else than just cashing in on the name "Deathtrap Dungeon"?

Because that's not the way Puffin think. If they did, then they might have faxed a 
few shops when Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves came out, to tell them they had a 
warehouse full of Robin of Sherwood gamebooks.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

The rules for copyright and trademark seem a bit complicated, but are 
actually quite simple. Please trust the mass communications student on this 
one: I wrote a term paper about copyright as it relates to the Internet 
"fanfiction" for Media Law class.

COPYRIGHT
According to U.S. copyright law (which is apparently similar to 
international law, as told by my economics prof, but not necessarily like 
copyright in other countries), ANY WRITING you commit to paper is 
copyrighted to YOU until 50 years after you die, or 50 years after the death 
of the last surviving co-author, if more than one. (This allows for your 
heirs to benefit from the profits of your work, if any.)

You CAN register your work through the Copyright Office, or you can mail 
your work to yourself via registered mail (so that it has a date on it). But 
you do not HAVE to. Doing these things is only a means of proving that you 
are indeed the author of a given work in case you want to sue someone for 
stealing your work later on.

If I wrote a book and sold it to Publisher X, I would not be selling them 
the copyright, but the publication rights. I would, according to the 
carefully-read contract, be paid a certain sum as they purchased the rights, 
and then be paid a small percent each time one of my books was sold.

Say Publisher X, much to the dismay of my adoring fans (This *is* just a 
hypothetical situation), decides to discontinue my book. However, the guy at 
Video Game Company Q LOVES it and wants to make a game out of it. Video Game 
Company Q would have to purchase "derivative work rights" from either 
Publisher X or (if I was smart and had it worded carefully in my contract) 
from ME.

("Derivative work rights" is where you can get into trouble if you are 
publishing "fanfic" on the Internet. If you are writing new "X-Files" 
stories and putting them on your webpage, *legally* Chris Carter and Fox 
Network could take you to the cleaners. However, unless you are making money 
off "Mr. Mulder Goes to Washington," or seriously damaging the image of the 
show, they are not likely to. Derivative work rights are kind of 
tricky--there are variations for satire and such.)

Back to the subject at hand...

Video Game Company Q not only wants to release a game based on my book, they 
also (as a promotional gimmick) want to re-issue the actual book. So they 
purchase the publication rights (again, depending on the contract, from 
either me or Publisher X). Maybe they will get Publisher X to print it. But 
if Publisher X has its hands full, Video Game Company Q may opt to to have 
Publisher Æ print it instead.

TRADEMARKS
These are something different. Trademarks are reserved for names (like 
"Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks") or a logo (like the much-disputed "Go Network" 
and "GoTo" logos, which look very much the same--last I heard they were in 
court over whose it was) or a motto ("Strong enough for a man, pH balanced 
for a woman.") Since trademarks are owned by companies, their duration does 
not have a set expiration.

Hope this clears up any confusion, and doesn't cause more.

--Lorekeeper aka Alisha Ferguson

Many thanks Alisha, for the painstaking clarification. 

Many people think the 'mail a copy to yourself' constitutes some kind of 
copyright, but as you correctly point out, it is merely a means of 'proving' that 
you are the author (word on the 'real life' grapevine is that this is a pretty crappy 
way of establishing authorship, and not really worth doing).

Derivative rights to Fighting Fantasy are quite extensively spelled out in the 
Puffin Contracts. I know exactly what percentage I am due of any movie based 
on 'The Crimson Tide' (dang! why did they set it in a submarine?).

As you also pointed out, most publishers buy publication rights. You are mistaken 
in suggesting that this is always the case, however. An increasing number of 
publishers are purchasing copyright. I don't believe this was possible under the old 
Berne Convention (the international copyright agreement, which the US finally 
came out a signed a few years ago), but it certainly is now.

The individual contract specifies how long before rights revert to the original 
author.

One reason I would prefer to avoid actually publishing FF books, even by friends 
of mine, is because of the derivative rights issue. I would have to negotiate with 
Ian Livingstone. I have reasons for not wanting to do that which, given the UK's 
punitive libel laws (guilty until proven innocent: pay up or go to jail!) I had better 
not air on this list.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

The alternative method that I have heard of is to mail 6 copies of your
book to different libraries in the the UK (and, presumably, a similar
system exists in the US). There's some company that does this service for
free, at least in England. Again, this is only a way of "proving"
copyright- it is not a way of creating it.

Nathan Page

> ANY WRITING you commit to paper is
> copyrighted to YOU until 50 years after you die, or 50 years after the death
> of the last surviving co-author, if more than one. (This allows for your
> heirs to benefit from the profits of your work, if any.)

> If I wrote a book and sold it to Publisher X, I would not be selling them
> the copyright, but the publication rights. I would, according to the
> carefully-read contract, be paid a certain sum as they purchased the rights,
> and then be paid a small percent each time one of my books was sold.

This is normally true- however many companies will write out contracts that buy
out any number of your rights to the work, including but not limited to full
copyright ownership (or even authorship as in a work-for-hire agreement). Anyone
that has worked with a large company from the standpoint of being someone
unpublished or really waiting for their big break knows that there really is
little room for negotiation if the publisher wants all rights- it's take it or
leave it. It happens quite commonly in the real world, unfortunately, with comic
book creators, animators, even musicians being swindled out of their rights.
Either that or in many cases they don't work as most of the competing companies
will tend to work under the contract that their competitor got away with. If a
company wants full copyrights, about the only compromise they may take is a
reversion of rights after X years of non-use. As for royalties, book publishing
may be more generous to this, but it is not a guarantee.

One reason a company might want to do this is that they might be in the process
of creating a large Intellectual Property from the series or work, and don't
want to worry about rights ownership by the contributors. See Disney for an
example of this.
--
Randy

Can a guy in the UK do that to a guy in Japan over an event on a Canadian
list?

philip.mills

Only in America...

Sorry...  Had to take my digs at the nation with more lawyers than the rest of
the world combined...
--
Jason Williams

Just FYI, I have found that the "mail it to yourself" *does* indeed hold up 
in court, at least in the U.S. (So long as you don't open the envelope once 
you've mailed it.)

As it has a government (Post Office) placed date on it, that is proof that 
you wrote the material contained on or before that date. Therefore, if 
someone has the same material dated later and claims to have written it, the 
court knows you wrote it first.

But as I said before, as far as U.S. copyright goes, it is not necessary to 
mail or register your work to *have* copyright (that's automatic) but it is 
helpful to *prove* copyright.

I don't know about any other country.

TTFN
--Lorekeeper aka Alisha Ferguson

I recently asked:
>Yes, but did Eidos publish the copy of Deathtrap Dungeon that followed the
>game too? That is the interesting question here.

An interesting debate followed, but the question is still unanswered.

Is there anyone on this list who owns one of the boxed sets which came with
the book, and can look up if it was published by Puffin or Eidos?

Cheers,
Svein

>Rights always revert to the author after a book has been out of print for a
>certain amount of time

How long has Deathtrap Dungeon been out of print?

>this is how I am able to publish Heart of Ice
>(assuming all goes well).

Here's to hoping that all goes well - I'm looking forward to seeing the
finished product!

Cheers,
Svein

Hi,

The book was published by Puffin (it has 'Puffin Books' printed inside),
however, it does not have a date when it was published, only when it was
*first* published (1984).

Ta.

Richard Stanton

Interenting - thanks for the info!

Sounds to me like Eidos commissioned a certain number of copies from Puffin,
or something. Who knows. Their interest in keeping the series up & running
must really be low since they didn't take the opportunity to push out a few
copies on the regular market as well.

Unless Ian has some rights or say in the matter, and prohibited it? But I
can't for the life of me think of a single good reason why he would do that.

Oh well.

Cheers,
Svein

>Well my copy of the game *DID* come with a copy of Deathtrap
>Dungeon the book! Yes, and also some cards, for playing
>Deathtrap Dungeon the card game.

I was meaning to ask more about this card game, as I'd never heard about it
before. Is this something that can (or could) be bought seperately, or was
it a thing that came with the initial copies of DD? I'd love to hear more
about this cardgame and how it works. Is the link with the book strong?

Cheers,
Svein

Yeah, after scratching around I finally found the cards, and this is how the
game works:

The game is for 4-8 players. The goal is to 'kill' all the monsters by
discarding cards (which all have a creature on them), the quicker the
better. All cards are dealt and the player who gets the 'Exploding Pig'
starts (discarding the Pig and another card).

Players arrange their cards in sets (e.g. Orcs, Skeletons, Warriors etc) and
the first player puts down any number of cards from the same set, face up
(all cards are normally hidden from the other players). The next player
(going clockwise) can then play if they can put down the same number of
cards with a higher value. i.e. Four Skeletons (worth 3 each) could be
followed by Four Warriors (worth 5 each). If the player cannot do this, they
pass.

The winner of the hand is the last player to put down the set with the
highest value (this will always be the last player who was able to play!)
This person then starts the next round, with a note being made of the order
of finish, the players being ranked thus:

1st to finish = The Big Hero!
2nd to finish = The Hero

2nd to last to finish = The Wimp
Last to finish = The Total Wimp!

The cards are shuffled and re-dealt for the second round, but before the
game begins again, The Total Wimp must hand over his/her 2 highest cards to
The Big Hero, with the Big Hero giving back any two cards. Also, The Wimp
does the same with The Hero. The rounds continue until 4 rounds have been
played.

'Special cards' also exist. Chaindog and Red Lotus (the two characters you
play in the computer game itself) can be used to add to any set, played on
their own they have a value of 0. The Killing Machine can be played on its
own at any time to stop a hand, the player that used it begins the next
hand.

I hope you all understand this, I kinda do.

I don't think you can buy the cards separately, they just come with the
computer game.

According to the rule book:

Game Design: Ian Livingstone (using an idea from an ancient Chinese card
game called 'Zheng Shang Yu')

Oh, and incidentally, the cards were illustrated by Martin McKenna.

If any of you lot are really interested in seeing what the cards look like,
because I run a Fighting Fantasy web site, I could scan them and put them up
(if, that is, enough people are interested, and tell me so!).

My site is: http://www.stanton71.freeserve.co.uk if you're interested.

Anyway, I've gone on for long enough...

Ta.

Richard Stanton

Thanks for the detailed description of the DD cardgame, Rich. I sure
appreciated your comments! Seems like this was a promotional tie-in/extra
only. I wish we'd get some of those ltd.ed.-boxes here in Norway - I'd
gladly get extra boxes just for the special print of the DD book and/or the
cardgame.

>If any of you lot are really interested in seeing what the cards
>look like, because I run a Fighting Fantasy web site, I could
>scan them and put them up (if, that is, enough people are
>interested, and tell me so!).

I for one am very interested! Please do!

Cheers,
Svein

I've been playing this for years (with regular cards)...  It's a big Water Polo
players game...  It's called Asshole (the same as the Total Wimp), or (more
politically correct) Principal and Janitor...

The differences are that you don't have to put down blocks of 4, and the number
of rounds is unlimited...
--
Jason Williams

I was expecting several hundred messages but from what I gather there has 
been little traffic here, ending me up with about 150 messages instead.

Let me reiterate that "Castle Death" is quite a difficult book, what with 
the Maze (without the Sommerswerd).  I used every single healing potion I 
had and barely escaped with my life.  Book 9 isn't so bad until you hit 
Zakhan Kimah, although my ten-sided dice were blessed by Kai and Ishir, 
rolling in succession an 8, a zero, a 9, and another zero, letting me finish 
off the Zakhan.  I also came across a similar spot of luck while fighting 
the Chaos-Master in Book 11.

I am about to read books 16-20 in their unedited forms for the first time, 
so that should be fun.  I did leaf through them and I noticed the picture of 
Naar that got edited out of #19.  Could someone scan that in so the poor 
Americans can see what the God of Darkness looks like?  I thought he looked 
kind of bulky and cumbersome, and not very threatening however.  Just putrid 
and ugly.  I imagined Naar as a more spidery thing and less like a jellylike 
blob of evil.

Lastly, I'm willing to trade a copy of #28 for a UK #15.

I hope my new sig isn't too long... Seeya later.
Jason Valasek

I just had a random idea.

Many members of the KW mailing list have expressed their desire to have a
Magnamund Companion II issued.  Since the first one didn't sell all that
great, it is unlikely that this will ever happen, if the LW series gets
republished.

How about we pool our collective knowledge and put together a MC II
ourselves?
Wouldn't it be cool to have updates on the status of the Northern and
Southern Nations, Go into more detail on the fall of the darkland armies,
have a short gamebook included (much like the Banedon adventure), and the
like.  Of course, we would want to be as close to the established facts as
possible.

(I for one don't have the time or knowledge of much beyond LW12 for this
kind of project, but I thought I'd just put the idea out on the table).
Comments?
Thanks
Jason Gaerke

This is a great idea! Isn't this why we have a mailing list? I'll help,
my LW knowledge compromises the series through book 20, the Grey Star
books, and the Magnamund Companion. (half of the first timeline is
missing) So, give me a task, and I'll see what I can do.
Cool Sandwich

The first thing would be to organize a team of people to do this.  This is
too big for any one or two people to take on.  It will require a group of
knowlegeable people with some time on their hands.  Any more volunteers?

For my part, I guess I could provide input (who can't do that?), but as I've
said before, I don't have much time or LW13+ knowledge to invest.

The second thing: the "MCMS84" team would need to brainstorm and determine
exactly WHAT they'd like to include in this new companion.  Perhaps solicit
KW for ideas.   What about Joe Dever's input?  Would he like to preface it?
Or would he prefer that we not even do this sort of thing (I don't see why
not...).

From there, it snowballs into committiees and subcommitees ....
Thanks
Jason Gaerke

This is a great idea, but one problem however...........

It is not just the gamebooks themselves that are copyrighted, it's the place,
the setting, the characters, the actual concept.....

This kind of undertaking cannot be completed without Joes involvement and
agreement.

Sorry to be the doomsayer, when there is so much positive energy here.

Gavin Gallot

Unfortunately, I have to agree with this assessment.  We really need to
seek the copyright holder's (in this case, Joe Dever's) permission
before any serious work be done on a project like this.  It's a grey
area, but ulitmately, we're creating new material within an existing
property (in this case, the Magnamund Companion), which is a no-no. 
It'd be really tough to put a lot of sweat, blood, and tears into a
project that would be for naught if you don't go through the proper
channels.

Having that said, I certainly would like to see an update of the MC. 
If permission is given, I'd say go for it!

Steve Farrar

OK, maybe I will play armchair attorney. Here's the "fair use" clause of
the US Code.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Fair Use Provision of the Copyright Act - The Statutory Decree

§107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair Use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of
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infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work
in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall
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a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
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The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of
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A non-commercial MC II that _extends_ the original and doesn't copy it
would fall within the fair use clause and would, therefore, not be a
copyright infringement. That's the same reason that our websites don't
infringe on copyright.

I'm not so sure about international copyright law. Maybe we could
develop it just within the US. (Just kidding :)

Jon Blake

Hi, I'm new to the mailing list and thought I might say g'day.  Being a resident of Australia I realised that a few of the books may be hard to get, however I must say I'm lucky. I have game books from 1 through 27 two MC's, and all Legends, (to my knowledge), except Hunting Wolf.  I'm always looking out for more due to the difficulty in obtaining them.  They do turn up in odd places but should I find many more I shall keep you posted.  However I am keen to know if The Skull of Agarash is the only graphic novel, is there anymore Legends novels after The Rotting Land, (I love the series) and when there maybe a reprint of the series or new books.  A second Magnamund Companion sounds great but permission is the first obvious hurdle.

Peter Cook

I would gladly help with this project. I've got the MC (there are a few
problems with it, but...), LWs 1-26 (with the exception of 22...for
now...all US except for 21+) LOLWs up to UK5, all the GS books, and Skull
of Agarash.

I still think we should get permission. What would be really cool is if we
put this toghetter, sent it to JD, and, whenever he gets a new publisher
(crosses fingers) he could publish it. Wouldn't that be great...it may
never happen, but still...

Sam Bowker

I think it could be created with no problem. There's no reason to worry
about
copyrights as long as we don't try to make money off it. Doing it for fun
doesn't
harm Joe in any way. There are hundreds of fan fiction sites out there on
the web that
use the characters and other elements of all types of copyrighted material,
but since
they're not selling their work, no one cares. This applies internationally I
believe.

Plus, no one's going to find out about it and sue us. This doesn't hurt Joe,
it won't
get us in trouble, I say do it.

Griffin Bryant

I just happen to have been working on a timeline and now I see that it just 
might come in handy.  I've broken it down among all 28 books.

MS 5034 - Grey Star shipwrecked on Isle of Lorn
MS 5036 - Landar is born
MS 5040 - Landar's father dies
MS 5042 - Landar's brother Jen dies while saving Landar's life
MS 5043 - Landar enters Kai Monastery, taking the name Silent Wolf
MS 5050 - Grey Star leaves Isle of Lorn
About a month later, Grey Star enters the Dazhiarn Plane.
MS 5050, Fehmarn - Kai Monastery destroyed (begin book 1)
Book 1 ends the next day.
Book 2 begins the day after that.
Book 2 ends 37 days later.
MS 5051 - Lone Wolf travels to Ikaya and apprehends Vonotar
Book 3 lasts about 35 days.
Book 3 ends on Maesmarn, which I'm assuming is the first day of autumn.
MS 5054 - Lone Wolf prevents Barraka from sacrificing Madelon Vanalund
Book 4 lasts about 11 days.
Book 5 begins less than a year after book 4 ends.
MS 5055, midwinter - Lone Wolf travels to Vassagonia
Book 5 lasts about 28 days.
MS 5057 - Grey Star destroys Wytch-King Shasarak
MS 5058 - Lone Wolf travels to Varetta
Book 6 lasts about 17 days.
MS 5059 - Lone Wolf travels to Kazan-Oud
Book 7 lasts one or two days (I think).
MS 5060 - Lone Wolf and Paido travel to the Danarg.
Book 8 lasts about 6 days.
MS 5061 - Gnaag becomes Archlord of the Darklands
MS 5061 - Lone Wolf descends into Zaaryx
Book 9 lasts about 6 days.
MS 5062, midsummer - The Siege of Torgar, Lone Wolf cast into Dazhiarn
Book 10 lasts about 6 days.
MS 5063 - New Order Grand Master born
Lone Wolf spends only a few days on the Dazhiarn Plane.  Therefore he
only ages a few days, even though eight years pass in Aon.
MS 5070 - Lone Wolf returns from Dazhiarn (book 12 begins)
Book 12 lasts about 13 days.
MS 5075 - Lone Wolf destroyes the Cener plague virus
Book 13 only lasts one day (I think)
six months later, Lone Wolf rescues Banedon from Kaag
Book 14 lasts three days.
Book 15 begins three months after Banedon's rescue
MS 5076 - Magnaarn finds the Doomstone of Darke
Book 15 lasts 23 days.
MS 5077 - Cadak tries to resurrect Vashna
Book 16 lasts about 40 days.
Several months later, Ixiataaga obtains the Deathstaff.
Book 17 lasts about 11 days.
Book 18 begins the next day.
Book 18 lasts about 28 days.
Book 18 ends on Fehmarn, MS 5077
MS 5080, summer - Wolf's Bane terrorises Sommerlund
Book 19 lasts a few days, but a year passes on Aon.
MS 5081 - Lone Wolf retrieves the Moonstone from Dazganon
MS 5081 to MS 5083 - The Blessing of the Moonstone
MS 5083 - New Order Grand Master takes Moonstone to Elzian (begin 21)
Book 21 lasts about 22 days.
Book 22 begins four days later.
Book 23 begins two months after 22 ends.
Book 23 lasts about 51 days.
MS 5083, midautumn - Runes of Agarash found
Book 24 lasts about 32 days.
Book 25 begins the day after 24 ends.
Book 25 lasts a couple of days.
MS 5084, early winter - Shom'zaa released
Book 26 lasts a couple of days.
MS 5084, spring - Sejanoz finds Claw of Naar
Book 27 lasts about 10 days
MS 5084, early summer - Book 28 begins
Book 28 lasts about 15 days.

I also figured out that Lone Wolf, in the year MS 5084, would be 48, 
although he'd only have aged 29 years, due to his nifty 5-for-1 deal with 
aging, plus his lost time in the Dazhiarn.  That would make him 30 in the 
year MS 5086.  Which would then make him aged 50 years in
MS 5186, even though he was really 150 years old.  So I'm guessing Lone Wolf 
could reasonably live to being 250 years old, while only aging 70 years.

Okay, so I'm in a paradoxical mood today. :~)
Jason Valasek

As far as LW is concerned, your timeline is correct but these are the right
years for GS.

MS 5031 - Grey Star shipwrecked on Isle of Lorn
MS 5047 - Grey Star leaves Isle of Lorn
MS 5054 - Grey Star destroys Wytch-King Shasarak

Alessandro Roberti

From:	Jason Gaerke
> Let's keep the brainstorming among ourselves, not on
> KaiWisdom - but we may do well to ask KW for some ideas on what > they'd 
like to see.

I don't think it a bad idea to do the work on kai wisdom, unless there is a 
definite finite limit of mail exchange which the list server can handle. 
 There isn't so much traffic on the mailing list that this is an 
unnecessary and off topic burden.  And, in fact, there might be others, and 
newcomers, who may decide to join this effort, even though they haven't 
presented themselves for one reason or another now.

> *Updated timeline -- Dare we say that we are upon a new age --
> the Age of the Kai?

I wouldn't suggest Age of the Kai (we do have to think worldwide, and 
others in the world would be considered deserving of credit as well; 
particularly by historians in othe countries), but I also believe that the 
defeat and destruction of the Darklords represented a reasonable turning 
point which historians would later recognize with a new "era" name.  It had 
all the earmarks of a world-wide shift in global affairs.

However, I would point out that shifts in how people chronicle time (like 
the "change" from BC to AD, for instance) tend to be centuries in the works 
before they finally occur in a widespread manner, and historians go back 
and "back-date" everything to bring it in line with the "new" timeline. 
 It's possible that such a refiguring of time just hasn't really had a 
chance to occur yet by 5084.

> *In depth analysis of the New Order Kai/Kai Monastery II Drawing?

Reasonable, although I find it highly likely that the new monastery 
probably looks basically identical to the old with the obvious exception of 
Lone Wolf's "wine cellar".  ; )

> *Historical Analysis : Fall of the Darkland Empire

Unless this consisted of short stories of some of the individual acts of 
heroism associated with the battles between the Free Peoples and the 
Darklords (similar to the short stories which appeared in the old MC), I 
would say this is rather redundant with present existing material 
(specifically the Lone Wolf books themselves, which tended to carry a lot 
of information on this very subject in the course of the text).

> *Updated Statistics of the nations

Helpful.  Short descriptions and histories of each nation (and not 
excluding any this time) would be better, if a bit longer and more 
ambitious.

> *New gamebook, similar in length to the Banedon adventure?

Definitely.  There are any number of possibilities here, and it wouldn't 
hurt to ultimately tie into or parallel some event in the Lone Wolf books, 
as the Banedon adventure did.

> *More detail on the Army of Sommerlund?

Personally, I think there's enough out there on this.  I'd rather take the 
focus off Sommerlund, to a certain extent, and look elsewhere in the world, 
as there is a lot which can be compiled and expanded upon without having to 
repeat old material.  After all, how many of the later adventures of both 
Lone Wolf and his "successors" acutally took place within the borders of 
Sommerlund, compared to how many did not.

However, some thoughts as to how the New Order Kai military structure 
functions (as per book 24, Rune War) would be both unique and valuable.

> *New: Monster Manual: Details some monsters of Magnamund?

Definitely.

> *Updated Giak Language: Johnathan Blake showcases his work?

Probably a good thing (I've never looked over his work to any great 
degree).

Additionally to the above thoughts, I would add the following:

*A short (very short) summary on each book in the series (this is valuable, 
particularly if we are going to refer to events and books which many Lone 
Wolf fans might not have access to, like Books 21+).
*Short pieces on other cultures within Magnamund, particularly ones which 
have been featured in Lone Wolf books, yet never really developed in the 
past (i.e. the Vakeros).
*A complilation of all the maps from the various books (this comes close to 
occuring at certain Internet site, but I still find copies that are at one 
site and no another).
*Some short stories on the order of the ones in the old MC, but pertaining 
to folk in other lands (a lot of milage can be obtained out of this idea 
alone, I imagine).
*An assembled treatise on the various types of magic in Magnamund, their 
sources, similarities, and differences.

All I can think of at the moment.

Frank

> However, I would point out that shifts in how people chronicle time (like
> the "change" from BC to AD, for instance) tend to be centuries in the works
> before they finally occur in a widespread manner, and historians go back
> and "back-date" everything to bring it in line with the "new" timeline.
>  It's possible that such a refiguring of time just hasn't really had a
> chance to occur yet by 5084.
> 

Although, this change may take a few years to be realised by the peoples
of Magnamund this has happened. According to the Elder Magi, the Kai
will take over. 

Or to quote Lord Rimoah in LW22 (#225): (After having witnessed the
ascenion of one of the Elder Magi):
"... This is the dawning of your Age Grand Master. You and your brothers
shall carry forward the fight against Naar, and you shall be victorius"

> > *In depth analysis of the New Order Kai/Kai Monastery II Drawing?
> 
> Reasonable, although I find it highly likely that the new monastery
> probably looks basically identical to the old with the obvious exception of
> Lone Wolf's "wine cellar".  ; )
> 

No, I think it will be different. The Old Monastery had schools for
Magnakai training, but nothing in particular for Grand Masters. The new
Kai Monastery would have to include special sections for Grand Masters
as well.

Also some of the new disciplines such as Bardsmanship and Astrology, and
the Magic Disciplines, means that 'new rooms' would be  built to cater
for new needs.

The Vault of the Sun, and its secret passage didn't exist.

> > *Historical Analysis : Fall of the Darkland Empire
> 
> Unless this consisted of short stories of some of the individual acts of
> heroism associated with the battles between the Free Peoples and the
> Darklords (similar to the short stories which appeared in the old MC), I
> would say this is rather redundant with present existing material
> (specifically the Lone Wolf books themselves, which tended to carry a lot
> of information on this very subject in the course of the text).
> 

No actually, information is very scarce. All we know is that the
darklands army were defeated. The details of the events are largely
unknown.

The death of the Darklords outside the Darklands is one such mystery.
(It is namely so that when the Darklords first arrived in Magnamund,
they arrived to the same landscape/atmosphere that caused their rapid
demise in MS 5070.) So thus, the air would weaken the darklords but it's
unlikely it would kill them immediately. In any case, with swift flying
mounts and Nadziranim around them, it's likely they would survive for
long enough to return to the darklands.

The death scenario would also assume that only the three Darklords Lone
Wolf happened to meet during his journey were in the Darklands at the
time the reamining 12 were all outside the borders of the Darklands.

As to which battles took place, and even which countries had been
occupied by the darklords and which had been free is largely unknown.
(We know a few but far from all.)

> > *Updated Statistics of the nations
> 
> Helpful.  Short descriptions and histories of each nation (and not
> excluding any this time) would be better, if a bit longer and more
> ambitious.
> 

I think the missing nations are up on Desert Lynx Oasis. Joe Dever has
provided material to Desert Lynx. (The information is of course MS
5050.)

> > *New gamebook, similar in length to the Banedon adventure?
> 
> Definitely.  There are any number of possibilities here, and it wouldn't
> hurt to ultimately tie into or parallel some event in the Lone Wolf books,
> as the Banedon adventure did.
> 
> > *More detail on the Army of Sommerlund?
> 
> Personally, I think there's enough out there on this.  I'd rather take the
> focus off Sommerlund, to a certain extent, and look elsewhere in the world,
> as there is a lot which can be compiled and expanded upon without having to
> repeat old material.  After all, how many of the later adventures of both
> Lone Wolf and his "successors" acutally took place within the borders of
> Sommerlund, compared to how many did not.
> 
> However, some thoughts as to how the New Order Kai military structure
> functions (as per book 24, Rune War) would be both unique and valuable.
> 

It probably functions as the first Order of the Kai. The new Order Kai
trains leaders and commanders in strategy. The Kai by themselves doesn't
form armies, they provide leadership. (of course, at times the Kai will
form armies, but this is not the normal case.)

> > *New: Monster Manual: Details some monsters of Magnamund?
> 
> Definitely.
> 
> > *Updated Giak Language: Johnathan Blake showcases his work?
> 
> Probably a good thing (I've never looked over his work to any great
> degree).
> 
> Additionally to the above thoughts, I would add the following:
> 
> *A short (very short) summary on each book in the series (this is valuable,
> particularly if we are going to refer to events and books which many Lone
> Wolf fans might not have access to, like Books 21+).

Lone Wolf 21+ would be after MS 5084. The original MC didn't detail
event after MS 5050, should we then detail events after MS 5084. (Or do
we want to make the MC detail Magnamund a few years later?)

> *Short pieces on other cultures within Magnamund, particularly ones which
> have been featured in Lone Wolf books, yet never really developed in the
> past (i.e. the Vakeros).

That's really a mine-field. People tend to have very different ideas on
the Vakeros.

> *A complilation of all the maps from the various books (this comes close to
> occuring at certain Internet site, but I still find copies that are at one
> site and no another).

Probably something we could ask Joe Dever about.
He ought to have a full scale version Map of Magnamund.

> *Some short stories on the order of the ones in the old MC, but pertaining
> to folk in other lands (a lot of milage can be obtained out of this idea
> alone, I imagine).
> *An assembled treatise on the various types of magic in Magnamund, their
> sources, similarities, and differences.
> 

Another area where opinions are very different, but certainly a
worthwile one.

Regards,
Robert Ekblad

Actually, if one reads the legends or even the normal Lone Wolf one can surmise
that this happened in several ways.  In Legends, Zagarna has to wear special
items in order not to suffocate outside of the Darklands.  I would suppose that
not only are Darklords weakened outside of the Darklands, but they will die if
separated from their natural environment of waste for very long.  In addition, I
would suppose that in order to make the fell machine that would enable them to
survive outside of the Darklands, they had to put a bit of their own substance
into it, thus making a connection between them and the machine.  They would have
that connection still to the Darklands enabling them to survive and retain all
their powers.  Upon its destruction, due to the connection, they would be
destroyed as well.  We do know that they can't be destroyed by anything other
than the Sommerswerd or certain weapons crafted by other Darklords, thus it
would be very hard just to kill them off unless there was actually something
with the destruction of the Machine in Helgedad which led to their devastation
(which in my eyes makes sense).

Sean-Robert Shaw
Grey Lord

> Know what exists?? I've never heard of there being an observatory
> in the Kai Monastery.

A tower to view the stars from.  No more is really required.  Astrology as 
portrayed in Books 21+ is a combination of stargazing and fortune-telling, 
nothing more, and certainly nothing which would require an observatory.

> Then you assume that the new Order Magnakai training is
> NOT changed too.  Some of the new New Order skills are
> very powerful, there might have been some preperation / training
> for them already at Kai Master level.  After all, in Book 28, it's
> said that the Kai has experts astrologists, and if there's 1-2 Kai
> who knows Astrology in the whole Kai Monastery, then that
> would hardly be the case.

You have a point.  However, I think that's getting off the topic of this 
creation you have in mind.  You were right in your concern a little while 
ago about the difficulties inherent in generating a lot of new stuff for 
something like this.  The vast majority of the above snippet is getting 
pretty far into the realm of 
difficult-to-truly-substantiate-with-present-text information.  I have 
nothing against this going in that direction (as you pointed out, some of 
my own suggestions do exactly that).  However, I think that needs to be 
decided first, as I've said before.

> 5084 would be same time as LW 21.

I know.  That was my point.  Do you think it a good idea to encompass LW 
21+ (including the information leading up to LW 21; i.e. the new GM 
disciplines) or not.  I've heard mixed feelings on the issue.  Personally, 
I'm all for including the new developments, at least in so much as we know 
about them.

> There was nothing left of the old Kai Monastery.

Lone Wolf was there for many years of his life (15, I think, though I don't 
remember the exact figure).  I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't 
have remembered it explicitly when he supervised the reconstruction of it 
(that was finished not much more than a year or two after Zagarna's defeat, 
if the timing in the descriptions in books 3 and 4 are to be believed). 
 Moreover, he wouldn't likely have changed the building much, I would 
think.  Moreover, I imagine that, like any relatively literate military 
culture, there was probably plans of the old Monastery maintained 
somewhere.

> We know detail for about 10 countries out of 50(?) in northern
> Magnamund. That's a small fraction to me.

*chuckles*  Hence, my other desire about more detailed information about 
each country.  Personally, I think that information would probably address 
both of our wishes on this particular issue.

> They must have. They arrived alone without any servants in an
> area that was quite fertile when they arrived. It was not until later
> that they started to spawn their servants...

One, we don't know that (though I agree an assumption on this isn't totally 
incorrect).  Keep in mind I said (or meant to mean, anyway) that we don't 
know in what condition the Darklords came through.  Even if they came 
through by themselves, there's no reason not to presume they didn't have 
some sort of protection.  Else why the extensive environmental conversion 
of the Darklands in the first place.  Considering the relative power of the 
Darklords, and the amount of time, effort, and resources it would take to 
create the kind of conditions that existed in the Darklands, there would be 
no logical need unless it was necessary.

> There were records of brief excursions by the Darklords before, but
> of course the darklords grew much weaker during such excursions.

Weaker does not imply unprotected.

> However, with the swift mounts they had some of them ought to have > made 
it.

Kraan and Zlanbeast are fast, but they aren't that fast.

> Treacherous troops killing their weak masters comes to mind.

Possible, but pretty hard to believe for creatures created and conditioned 
by those masters (gods would be a better way of describing the Darklords in 
the minds of most of their minions).  At least not without some pretty 
powerful (and probably magical) intervention.

> In Legends 5 the Nadziranim makes it possible for LW to breathe
> Helgedad's atmosphere for a year. Wouldn't they be able to do
> something similar for their Darklord Masters for a few hours?

This is true too.  It could be that the story surrounding the defeat of the 
Darklords, at least as it focuses on the Darklords themselves, might be too 
sticky a subject to try and develop.  It's one thing to develop something 
two people have different ideas about.  It's another thing to try to 
develop something there are actual contradictions in past material.

> I think it says rapid demise, but what does rapid demise mean for a
> creature that has lived for about 2000 years?

Now that is certainly true.  However, one would have to wonder how they 
died.  Logically, if they made it back to the Darklands, they would have 
survived just fine.  After all, they survived Haakon's and Zagarna's deaths 
just fine.

Here's a theory that just occured to me now; based on some past statements 
I've read.  Say the Darklords were linked to the Transfusor in Helgedad in 
some strong manner (not impossible, considering the evidence in LW12). 
 Now, say that link was strong enough to create a situation which would be 
regarded as impossible, the Darklords surviving indefinitely at full power 
outside the Darklands (again, explicit evidence in LW12).  Now, power like 
that must come at a cost, of course.  So let's say the cost was that the 
fate of the Darklords was intrisically linked with that of the Transfusor. 
 Not illogical, considering it's in the very seat of the Darklords' power. 
 It's kind of the Death Star theory, I guess.  Hit the main reactor, and 
the power feedback destroys the ship, linked to that main reactor.  This 
would insure the Darklords' "rapid demise" while avoiding any possibly 
contradictory issues about whether or not it was the atmosphere that killed 
them.  From what I can read in LW12, this seems to be the case.

> Just consider, if Lone Wolf had taken the way that was planned
> then he would never had killed Kraagenskul and there would be
> one Darklord remaining. (No, I don't like the statistics for this.)

This is another statement that I think backs the above theory.  I doubt 
Rimoah and Banedon would be so careless as to not have researched the issue 
carefully.  From Banedon's comments at the beginning of the LW12 adventure, 
it seems like the Transfusor had been up and operational for at least a few 
years, if not the full 7 or 10 (I can't remember which) that Lone Wolf was 
gone.  The risk was staggering, so it's unlikely they would bet all on less 
than a solid chance that destroying the Transfusor would result in the 
victory they expressed to Lone Wolf.  So, destroying the Transfusor, I 
would guess, would have to be guarenteed (or, at least, significant 
sureity) to take out the Darklords, no matter what or where they might have 
been.  Anything less, and it would have been easier and less risky to just 
have Lone Wolf hunt the Darklords down, and destroy them one by one (with 
Banedon's airship, that would not have been difficult).

> I don't think we should write how they died in MC II. The standard
> formaulation that Joe Dever uses is good enough for me. (I hope you
> agree there is no need to go into details here.)

I agree.  If you recall, I had reservations about the idea too.  ; )

> The dilemma with the vakeros is that different Lone Wolf sources
> says totally different things about the Vakeros and what they
> actually are in reality, and the sources are very difficult to unite.

I think that's someone's opinion, someone who, as you pointed out earlier, 
has their own view of the Vakeros which some of the actual information 
doesn't agree with.  I've never seen anything like that, myself.  All the 
sources seem to agree just fine (and I have compiled all the information in 
the past).  Joe Dever is nothing if not consistant in his developments of 
Magnamund.  If one perceives contradictions, then one's assumptions are 
probably wrong (see our atmosphere discussion).

Frank

Just thought I'd throw a few random thoughts into this discussion...

I don't see why an observatory would be "out of the question" for the
Monastery considering the Astrology discipine.  A small round room with a
domed, glass cieling would be more than adequate.  How else did the New
Order Grand Masters learn to read the stars?

I believe at Dersert Lynx's Oasis there is addendums to the MC regarding
country info.  Is this still there?

Joe really sent us all into a tizzy with his wording in book 12 didn't he?
"...brings about the rapid demise of the Darklords..."
There is enough evidence to support both sides, i.e instant death versus
prolonged torture and eventual death, but my belief is more of the "Death
Star theory" that was brought up.  I believe that they all died pretty
close to intantaneously when the Transfusor was destroyed.  After all,
couldn't the Nadziranim have transported them back to Helgedad if they
were slowly dying?

In the interview with Joe Dever at one of the sites..I think at
Julian's..it says that the information in the gamebooks should be used as
a reference for all Lone WOlf questions as they predate the Legends series
by many years.  We have to keep in mind that Paul Barnett took quite a lot
of creative liberty not only with Magnamund, but also with the characters
themselves.  What I want to know is why Joe didn't pen the novels himself?
The only problem then is should we look to the Legends books where
applicable or just ignore them altogether?  Either way could be justified.

Rick Grotzky

> How else did the New Order Grand Masters learn to read the stars?

Um.  Haven't you ever sat on a hilltop looking at the stars, or perhaps on 
top of a tall building?  I have.  So have the vast majority of historical 
astonomers, particularly of the medieval and renaissance times.  I'm just 
pointing out there just isn't much logic to them making such a grand 
creation for such a small pool of people learning it (particularly if it 
isn't at all necessary).  And inventing reasons to try and prop it up like 
"advanced learning" and the like still doesn't explain the necessity. 
 Remember that, learned as they might be, the Kai are warriors, and the Kai 
Monastery is supposed to be a fortress of war, first and foremost (it would 
be designed and built as such).  Such an "improvement" would be a costly 
waste that may even prove a liability.

> I believe at Dersert Lynx's Oasis there is addendums to the
> MC regarding country info.  Is this still there?

It is, but it's sketchy at best.  As sketchy as the original MC information 
was, in fact.  Hence my desire to see a more complete job done.

> I believe that they all died pretty close to intantaneously when
> the Transfusor was destroyed.  After all, couldn't the Nadziranim
> have transported them back to Helgedad if they were slowly dying?

Yep.  One reason I have finally tossed aside the idea that their "rapid 
demise" was due solely (or even mostly) to asphyxiation.  It's only an 
assumption, anyway, and our discussion has proved that assumption is 
faulty.

Incidently, I'm on the Kai Wisdom list.  You don't have to send it to me 
and the Kai Wisdom list at the same time.  : )

Frank

Well, I give my own idea on the subject.
Haakon couls exit from the Darklands to go to Vassagonia. He was weakened (just see his poor powers and characteristics compared to Gnaag in Helgedad) but he was able to survive at least a few days.
With the Transfusor, the Darklords were out of the Darklands for a long time (at least several weeks). So, with the destruction of the Transfusor, it was as if the Darklords were out of their country for a long time, and they all die immediatly...
 

For the question of their arrival, I think the Darklords were more powerful (because they've just quit their domain) and they could rapidly establish in a volcano or so (underground,...).

Fabrice Cadillon

>Anyway, a telescope was not invented until the late renaissance by That
>Guy Whom I Can't Remember <grin>, so it wouldn't be "fitting" in a
>medieval world. Yeah, there are loads of pictures of the ancient wizard
>looking through his telescope but it's all just an imaginative fantasy.

What about Gwyain? (spelling?) He runs an observatory!

Sam Bowker

I dunno, given the way things in Lone Wolf books have always been
presented to me, regardless of what can be said about the Kai in general or
the monastery - I think knowing Joe Dever's mind, he might have the new Kai
Monastery be a bit more improved on the old and include a few more modern
implementations. I could see this type of "observatory" thing being built
for it, I wouldn't put Joe past doing something like that himself if he were
writing it...the only question is whether or not it should be done though.
Or whether or not it would be. I could certainly imagine it being done,
regardless of the comments made about the Kai life in general and the
monastery's purpose (though the latter does stick out quite well in my mind
from memory). I guess you just have to use your imagination more though.
Sure, you don't wanna stretch things out beyond the original scope of belief
of the existing material...but part of writing and creating stuff like this
is to showcase a bit of the creative thinking and imagination skills...

But doesn't the concept of the new order grand masters give you a
feeling of a type of renaissance taking place
within the Kai culture? Just study the word renaissance itself - "rebirth".
Essentially isn't that what is happening to
the Kai? After all, lifestyles of the renaissance were still not fabulous or
glorified - they were pretty simple lifestyles
with just a new way of approaching life and thinking about life. I mean,
Lone Wolf is not supposed to take place on
Earth anyhow, who is to say when these things get invented? Who is to say
that they couldn't have earliest forms
of guns? You have to leave that to your own imagination, and to me the way
the New Order Grand Masters have
been presented, I wouldn't put it past them to maybe have something like
that.

Jason Leonard

Although in the very bare technical sense of the word I agree with your
assessment of the rennaissance of the Kai, I must also point out several items.
: )

If we start giving the Kai rifles and technology, it is no longer a medieval
fantasy.  This is the best aspect of most RPG's (thus the terms 'hack-n-slash',
and 'swords and sorcery').

This can be handled in several ways, such as by introducing a sort of Dark Ages
setting.  After the war, the world has been truly scarred.  Knowledge is lost,
yadda yadda.

Or, the Kai (in their infinite wisdom) realize that technology will only further
the destruction of the world.  Advanced technology is outlawed, banned.  They
are not hypocrites, so they don't use them either.  Magic and a good sword take
the forefront once again, and the world is saved.  This is used effectively in
many works, most notably in the Forgotten Realms setting (where Khelben Arunsun
and Elminster keep smoke powder from the hands of the masses) and in the books
by L.E. Modesitt (in which the island of Recluce keeps chaos in check by hiding
books, thus prohibiting the production of firearms).

Personally I like the second scenario.  It paves the way for more adventures,
and still keeps it medieval.  After all, a sword can't kill innocent
bystanders.  What's after the rifle, a grenade?  Will we soon be playing a Lone
Wolf version of Axis and Allies, with tanks, aircraft, and machine guns?

Don't let it happen!!!!!  Aaaargh!!!!

Secondly (I know I'm rambling, sorry), Magnamund is a world of M-A-G-I-C.
Normal concepts of space and time do not apply, because we don't want it to.
There are gods, there is the Daziarn.  Yes, there are other solar systems, even
other universes, but why can this not be incorporated into the magic?  Why must
they approach it differently?  Even if there was a Kai observatory, with a
reflecting telescope, who is to say that all the Kai would see is nebula, stars,
and supernovae?  There is magic all around, and the universe can have literally
ANY characteristics we place on it, as a work of fiction.  One could even revert
to Aristotle's original view of the universe as a set of crystal spheres.  Only
this time, it could be the truth for Magnamund?

Carl Reyes

Someone (sorry) mentioned that they felt an observatory would be a
compromising structure within the 'fortresss' architectuire of the Kai
Monastery. I have to disagree. The New Order with it's rebirth-renaissance
(thanks whomever) almost inevitably brought about a structural change along
with the new Grandmaster levels available to achieve. 
	The Companion details the Monastery, as far as my thinking is
correct, BEFORE the Kai massacre, as it took many years (anyone got a
date/time?)to rebuild, and the companion was concieved and published before
its full rebuilding in the traditional manner (eg. how Lone Wolf remembers
it, and how he altered it while recreating it  - larder first etc.). It
doesn't illustrate therefore any post-massacre changes.
	Here's the intereting bit (sorry it took so long):
		How exactly DOES the current Monastery differ?
	There's threelevels here    - 1: the Monastery as Lone Wolf built
it, with the help of the few new initiates he scrounged up around the place,
there were loads getting killed in the Legends series. Does anyone know the
name of the initiate (they had their original names, not their attribute
names) who became Firestone (most senior nigh Lone Wolf)as presented in the
Legends - a few names are given, and their characters are vague (except
missing limbs as I remember)so it's hard to guess whom it is. 
	Consider this the pre-Grandmaster monastery.

Then there's 2: the Grandmaster Monastery, changed by Lone Wolf after his
killing of the Darklords. The vault containing the Lorestones, pictured in
the graphic novel, told of in many books, is one of these changes. This is
beautifully pictured in Dawn of the Dragons, with a MASSIVE Tower of the Sun
(much bigger than pictured in the Companion, or the graphic novel)that I
think is one of the best touches Brian Williams has made to alter the world.
	(Trivia fans note that the graphic novel monastery reverts to the
companion-style depiction, even though it's placed chronologically after the
Dawn of the Dragons alteration. You have a choice of which to believe - give
me the book 18 version any day)

	Then there's 3: which is the New Order Monastery. With a whole new
posse of growing grandmasters, I can see no reason why Lone Wolf would
add/adapt/restructure rooms or anything to provide suitable new accomodation
(previously only one Grandmaster bed-studyroom), or new places for the very
new Disciplines given to him by Kai .Which is where I return to the point of
an observatory - it would only be a weak-point architecturally if it allowed
unrestricted access to the inner rooms if attacked by air (sic book 18), but
if accessed by a narrow staircase could remain a study area without equal
(Tower of the Sun maybe, or any other suggestions?).

	To make a big point quickly - whomever before stated the
Weaponmastery as an example of the Warrior-status of the Kai. WRONG. They're
not born with nigh-magical powers just so they can swing swords at Naar's
troops. They get every concievable kind of MIND empowerment, both for
fighting and otherwise. Yes, I agree that they are Sommerlunds first form of
defence, but they are wise, thoughtful, often just helping journeymen, and
advisors to the King (who thinks that when the King dies, Lone Wolf should
become Lord Protector, and rule, after all, the Prince is dead, and the
princess was thought by the KIng to be ineffectual and so was married off to
Durenor for political ties?).
	I'll love you and leave you all with this:
	The term is not Fortress of the Kai,
	it's MONASTERY of the Kai, with all the ensuing spiritual and mental
connotations.
	Any ideas on how this would be reflected in any of the three stages
I described??

Paul Gray (Sunheart)

PS It could be four stages if you seperate books 1-5 and 6-12, but I tend
not to in this discussion, as in books6-12he's so busy trying to kill the
darklords and get Lorestones that he wouldn't have that much more time than
books 1-5. So any major changes would be post bk12.

Paul Gray

The fact that it is a monastery means very little outwardly in an architectural
sense.

First of all, if you parallel with actual constructions of the Middle Ages,
monasteries were built to be fortresses.  The Knights Templar were powerful
warriors and spiritual men, but they realized the importance of a good defensive
position.  While they certainly had all the interior architectureal styling
necessary to appease their sense of spiritualism, there was never a compromise
to outward defense.  Even the old abbeys were built to repel invaders and house
troops, mainly because back then the church and state were one entity.  More
often than not, an actual castle would be taken by the church and modified to
suit the needs of the monks and warriors they housed.  True churches in the
stylized sense were not built until the Rennaissance.  There may have been
chapels and small churches attached to a main building, but the idea of a
separate church with twenty foot tall stained glass windows was not common, or
wise in those days of constant war.  The need for defense mitigated any thoughts
of style.

I agree with the assessment that an observatory could be built so as not to
compromise defense, but only if certain liberties are taken with accepted
methods of engineering.  An observatory, in order to appease the need for
defense, would have to be built separately from the main building of the
monastery.  The reason for this is simple.  If a Kraan (for example) flew in
through the top of the tower, you could keep it from getting to the other parts
of the monastery.  BUT, if said krann were carrying a Crystal Transfusor, the
explosion would probably cause said tower (very tall in order to accomplish its
function) to collapse.  If you put such a large, heavy structure in the middle
of a cluster of buildings, or as part of a large building, the tower would
either collapse, sending very heavy debris raining on the poor initiates, or it
would explode outwardly, taking a good deal of the rest of the monastery with
it.

The Tower of the Sun is very large, I agree.  Unfortunately, it probably
stretches the truth more than a little.  The tallest walls were about 80 feet
back in medieval times.  This was the highest they could go with the materials.
You would need reinforced concrete  and other materials not introduced until the
Rennaissance and even later (re-bar, anyone?).

Of course, we could just chalk the whole thing up to magic.  Cute, but I
actually like puzzling things out and making them SOMEWHAT realistic   :)

Carl Reyes

My own personal slant on the Observatory/Starwatching Issue:

The Kai, although multi-disciplined, are not expert star watchers.  The
Astrology discipline is availible to so few members of the order, that it
would be not justifiable economically to build an observatory.  The money
could be better spent on other monastery functions.  It would make more
sense to send select Kai to Toran or some other starwatching facility and
learn from the Star-masters.

This is not to say that the Kai couldn't have a telescope on top of the
Grand Master's Chamber or something similar.  (There ARE telescopes in
Magnamund.  Remember book 5, where the Drakkar and a Kraan are perched on a
rock formation with a telescope looking for the skyrider?)
Thanks
Jason Gaerke

If we are going to start talking about realism of building structures
lets not forget these:

1) The walls of Toran, I believe, were once said to be 50 yards (or
meters, I forget) thick. The concept of a wall surrounding an entire
city the size of Toran is stretching belief by itself, but for the wall
to be this thick is impossible.

2) I believe it was also written that the walls surrounding Helgedad or
Kagg (again, I forget) were over 40 miles long on each side. Once again
I bring up the point of the having a wall around an entire city, but
also ad that a city of that size is totally unrealistic for the time
period equivalent on Earth.

3) The Temple of Orhido (sp?) in The Danarg. It is written that the
whole temple is made out of solid slabs of precious metals and flawless
crystal. The larger a crystal is the more likely it is to have flaws.
Perfect crystal the size that is described in book 8 simply doesn't
exist naturally.   

If I think longer I could probably come up with another dozen examples.
The point of all this is that without exaggeration of the truth it
wouldn't be fantasy. In fact "exaggeration of truth" could be a
definition of the word fantasy.     What is being attempted by the
discussion of making a MC2 is not to rationalize everything in the
books, but to fill in the blanks of what we don't know and make
Magnamund all the more detailed.

M'Hael Matt Ulrich

When it comes to building structures I think the people in Magnamund
were more skilled than people on Earth were in the Middle Ages. However,
don't forget that humans have built very impressive buildings (in size)
over the years. The pyramids and the chinese wall comes to mind.

> If we are going to start talking about realism of building structures
> lets not forget these:
> 
> 1) The walls of Toran, I believe, were once said to be 50 yards (or
> meters, I forget) thick. The concept of a wall surrounding an entire
> city the size of Toran is stretching belief by itself, but for the wall
> to be this thick is impossible.
> 

How abouth this: the walls of Holmgard are 200 high (LW 1 #129). The
inner gatehouse is 100 yards in length, suggesting that the wall around
Holmgard is as thick as the one around Toran.

Anyway, we don't know who built these structures. Perhaps they were
built before the Sommlending came to Sommerlund?

> 2) I believe it was also written that the walls surrounding Helgedad or
> Kagg (again, I forget) were over 40 miles long on each side. Once again
> I bring up the point of the having a wall around an entire city, but
> also ad that a city of that size is totally unrealistic for the time
> period equivalent on Earth.
> 

Then again, that period on Earth didn't have unlimited labour in the
form of Giaks. Compare the structure to the Chinese Wall.

Again, I don't think we should compare the architecture to the Middle
Ages of Earth. This is an area where I feel the (building)technology is
overall described as quite a lot better than Middle Ages Earth.

> 3) The Temple of Orhido (sp?) in The Danarg. It is written that the
> whole temple is made out of solid slabs of precious metals and flawless
> crystal. The larger a crystal is the more likely it is to have flaws.
> Perfect crystal the size that is described in book 8 simply doesn't
> exist naturally.
> 

Hey, it's fantasy... The Elder Magic possess potent magic...

> If I think longer I could probably come up with another dozen examples.
> The point of all this is that without exaggeration of the truth it
> wouldn't be fantasy. In fact "exaggeration of truth" could be a
> definition of the word fantasy.     What is being attempted by the
> discussion of making a MC2 is not to rationalize everything in the
> books, but to fill in the blanks of what we don't know and make
> Magnamund all the more detailed.
> 

Well the facts points in the direction that building techniques are
developed and sophisticated and certainly better than they were on Earth
at the same time. Add to that an almost limitless supply of labour in
many cases, and you'll have a result.

Let's not forget that in many cases there has been quite a lot of
centuries to build up the above mentioned structures.

Robert Ekblad

That could be a possibility, but Holmgard was built by the Sommlending.  It 
never really goes into much detail with Toran.  Kaag/Helgedad/whatever could 
have been built, considering that the Darklands are HUGE and you have a 
practically unlimited army of Drakkarim, Vordaks, Helghasts, Giaks, 
Zlanbeasts, Kraan, etc.
King Wumpus

> In the interview with Joe Dever at one of the sites..I think at
> Julian's..it says that the information in the gamebooks should be used as
> a reference for all Lone WOlf questions as they predate the Legends series
> by many years.  We have to keep in mind that Paul Barnett took quite a lot
> of creative liberty not only with Magnamund, but also with the characters
> themselves.  What I want to know is why Joe didn't pen the novels himself?
> The only problem then is should we look to the Legends books where
> applicable or just ignore them altogether?  Either way could be justified.

I have no idea why Joe Dever didn't write the novels himself.  Perhaps he
was busy on other projects.  

I *definitely* agree that the gamebooks should be the primary source of
information.  I don't agree with some of Paul Barnett's depictions of the
characters (particularly Lone Wolf in the early books).  If there is any
differences between the gamebooks and the Legends, I always go with the
gamebooks.  If there is extra information in the Legends books that is not
in the gamebooks, I take it with a grain of salt.  Don't get me wrong, I
don't have a problem with the Legends series.  I just didn't enjoy them as
much as the gamebooks.  My two crowns.

<pulls on flame-resistant suit>

Mark J. Laird

Hello all,

I'll collect my reflections in this discussion in one mail (rather than
sending out four or five mails.) See below.

> 
> Frank & Elly <fdrelly@bentonrea.com> wrote:
> >From:  Rick Grotzky
> >> How else did the New Order Grand Masters learn to read the stars?
> >
> >Um.  Haven't you ever sat on a hilltop looking at the stars, or perhaps on
> >top of a tall building?  I have.  So have the vast majority of historical
> >astonomers, particularly of the medieval and renaissance times.

There are very big differences between Astrologers and Astronomers.

Astrologers are interested in the stars and planets relative positions
and they use these positions to predict events. They don't need
telescopes to count out relative positions. As Frank says, they have
very little need for advanced technical equipments. The Kai probably
find their Telescopic vision useful to study the stars, but they don't
build telescopes. What the Kai need and what they would store in their
observatory would be something like:

Star Charts...
Literature that describes what position of the stars give which effect,
and also literature for all other types of fortunetelling
Cards (for Fortunetelling)...
Dice (Perhaps even a Xi-die?)
Crystal Spheres...
Herbs suitable for meditations and visions ...
Astrolobes...
Sextants...
Orreriers ...
(Just read what the Astrology skill (as well as its extensions) can be
used for and you arrive at a list like the one above.

All tools are very basic. No top technology here. Joe Dever could hust
as well has named the Discipline "Fortunetelling" and it would probably
have been more accurate.

Astronomers try to do other things. Determine orbits, study
star-spectra, examine the atmosphere on planets and more. Astronomer do
need top notch tech, but this shouldn't be a problem since the Kai are
NOT astronomers.

The other new skills would likely require similar rooms. In quite a few
cases I can see a need for a Library, so that would likely exist. (I
think there was one in the original Kai Monastery as well.)

In addition possibly:
A room where herbs are stored and studied.
A chapel. (It's a Monastery)
A room where magic is studied. (possibly)
A room dedicated to music and the study of sounds (Bardsmanship)
"Lorehall" for studying the 'normal' Grand Master disciplines.

>> I'm just
> >pointing out there just isn't much logic to them making such a grand
> >creation for such a small pool of people learning it (particularly if it
> >isn't at all necessary).

When I first suggested I thought something like a 5x5 metres room, where
you could take away the roof, or alternative in a room which had a
staircase to an open sky. The obervatory could perhaps be placed inside
one of the towers along the wall ...

> A tower to view the stars from.  No more is really required.  Astrology as 
> portrayed in Books 21+ is a combination of stargazing and fortune-telling, 
> nothing more, and certainly nothing which would require an observatory.
> 

We've used different concepts of the word Observatory. When I used it
earlier I meant an observatory as it would have looked like during the
middle ages, and one that would have been used by an Astrologer.

> >And inventing reasons to try and prop it up like
> >"advanced learning" and the like still doesn't explain the necessity.
> > Remember that, learned as they might be, the Kai are warriors, and the Kai
> >Monastery is supposed to be a fortress of war, first and foremost (it would
> >be designed and built as such).

The Kai Monastery is also a centre of learning, and don't forget that
the Kai mostly receive spriritual training at the monastery. The
building serves as a fortress too, that why it has walls and defensive
battlements.

> 
> Anyway, a telescope was not invented until the late renaissance by That
> Guy Whom I Can't Remember <grin>, so it wouldn't be "fitting" in a
> medieval world. Yeah, there are loads of pictures of the ancient wizard
> looking through his telescope but it's all just an imaginative fantasy.

Actually, there are telescopes mentioned in the Lone Wolf books. (Though
not Telescopes that are suitable to study the stars with, Huntmastery
probably gives a better image than the best telescopes.) Just remember
that Astrology and Observatoriums existed long before the middle-ages...
(Though Astronomy needed these tools, as I said before.)

We should keep the technology the same as Joe Dever has. There's no
reason to change this. In some areas Magnamund has evolved longer than
the Middle-Ages on eart in other areas it's behind. I believe that by
reading the Lone Wolf books we can get a pretty good idea on how far
along Magnamund is in different areas.

>     This is another statement that I think backs the above theory.  I doubt 
>     Rimoah and Banedon would be so careless as to not have researched the issue 
>     carefully.  From Banedon's comments at the beginning of the LW12 adventure, 
>     it seems like the Transfusor had been up and operational for at least a few 
>     years, if not the full 7 or 10 (I can't remember which) that Lone Wolf was 
>     gone.  The risk was staggering, so it's unlikely they would bet all on less 
>     than a solid chance that destroying the Transfusor would result in the 
>     victory they expressed to Lone Wolf.

Lone Wolf's task was to destroy the Transfusor and Gnaag. When Lone Wolf
destroyed the Transfusor he didn't only stop the power being transmitted
to the Darklords with the Tanoz-Tukor (making them pitiful weak
creatures), he also destroyed HELGEDAD, the base for their power.

Giaks and most of the other of the Darklord's servants are bred to
attack and despise anything weak. This is especially true for their
masters. If they show weakness for too long the best they can hope for
is that the creatures abandon them, the worst is that they kill them.
(Carag wanted to slay Vonotar in Hunting Wolf, after he had shown signs
of weakness.)

>     So, destroying the Transfusor, I 
>     would guess, would have to be guarenteed (or, at least, significant 
>     sureity) to take out the Darklords, no matter what or where they might have 
>     been.

Yes, the Transfusor ould have to be destroyed. Destroying it was far
more important than worry about whether or not a darklord or two would
survive it being destroyed.

>  they had to put a bit of their own substance
>     into it, thus making a connection between them and the machine.  They would have
>     that connection still to the Darklands enabling them to survive and retain all
>     their powers.  Upon its destruction, due to the connection, they would be
>     destroyed as well.  

This connection would have to be a loose one, since none of Kraagenskul,
Taktaal and Gnaag has a Tanoz-Tuka on them when Lone Wolf encounters
them. This would suggest that the Darklords can take it on and off.

Also none of the Darklords trusted any of the others to any degree, and
before his ascension Gnaag was the one they trusted the least. I don't
think the darklords would have approved a too strong connection. For
instance, Darklord Taktaal could possibly have killed his rivals Xog and
Ghanesh (using their connection to the Transfusor) while they were
abroad through the transfusor. (Pure specualation on my side.)

> > 5084 would be same time as LW 21.
> 
> I know.  That was my point.  Do you think it a good idea to encompass LW 
> 21+ (including the information leading up to LW 21; i.e. the new GM 
> disciplines) or not.  I've heard mixed feelings on the issue.  Personally, 
> I'm all for including the new developments, at least in so much as we know 
> about them.

It's struck me that LW 28, is Summer MS 5084. (Wow. This New order Grand
Master manages to master 7-8 Grand Master Disciplines in a little more
than a year! That's some increase!)

> > There was nothing left of the old Kai Monastery.
> 
> Lone Wolf was there for many years of his life (15, I think, though I don't 
> remember the exact figure).  I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't 
> have remembered it explicitly

In MS 5050, the forces of Darkness mismantled the old Kai Monastery
brick by brick and spread the stones over an area of several square
miles. There was nothing left of
the old Kai Monastery. 

Giving Lone Wolf's rank, there was quite a few areas he had never seen
(Being an Initiate meant that large parts of the Kai Monastery was
off-limits to him), only heard about. We don't know if the floorplans
survived, if they did they must have had a copy somewhere else.

I don't think that Lone Wolf knew the Kai Monastery very well. Sure he
knew it's exterior, but there were quite alot of areas in it which he
knew little of.

Regards,
Robert

>If there is any differences between the gamebooks and >the Legends, I always 
go with the gamebooks.  If there >is extra information in the Legends books 
that is not >in the gamebooks, I take it with a grain of salt. 

I agree completely.  From what I've heard (I've never actually gotten my 
hands on Barnett's novels) I would not like them as much as the 
gamebooks--and probably dislike them, perhaps aggressively so.  The Legends 
books are a very poor reflection, in my mind, of the rich tapestry painted by 
the gamebooks.  If there's any doubt, the Legends series can simply go hang.

On the ASTROLOGY debate, I would like to point out that it is ASTROLOGY, not 
ASTRONOMY that we're discussing here.  Since astronomy is the science between 
the two, requiring the telescopes and equipment, and astrology is the 
fortune-telling of the two, relying on various guides of what alignments of 
stars mean what in whose lives, I don't see why an observatory would be 
necessary.  

-Brian Norshire

Ok first off, the word observatory basically means a a place that
commands a view of the surrounding, or a place from which you make
observations.

In the time we're talking people didn't know how to predict the planets
position in advance. Hence, they had to go out an observe the sky (from
the observatory.) In many cases astrologers and astronomers of the
middle ages were the same people using the same primitive instruments
that were then available.

When I said an observatory it's implied to mean an observation platform
, from which you which you have a good look at the sky and it's stars.
The observatory also contains the primitive tools at hand. (You need
tools to count out angels between the objects and so on.) It DOESN'T
imply a high-tech 20th century telescope!

I think the best observations available to earlier astronoms  (say
1600th century) were made by the naked eye, and yes they were made from
what they then called observatories.

In the middle ages it was a lot easier to observe the sky and the stars
since they didn't have all the pollution we have on earth today.

The reason for introducing an observatory is that it's mentioned in LW
28 that the Kai were famous astrologers, and I thought it unlikely that
they would have gained that recongition without even having an
observatory.

Robert Ekblad

Am I the only who remembers that the original discussion was over
whether or not the monastery would have a simple space under the sky for an
observatory or if they wouldn't actually have a little something more? We're
not atlking about the boom of technology hardening the times after the
war...:)

Jason Leonard

Yes, yes, indeed!
The focus is on making a MCII, not on if the New Order Monastery has an
observatory.

Ok, the new monastery has one of those cool looking small citadels that hang
off the side of one of those towers shown in LW#18, section 217 (US ed).  It
has a clear glass dome roof that has a built in focusing effect, and it been
engineered to rotate, and thus, it is possible to focus in at various
locations in the sky.  Inside the small citadel are various astronomy and
astrology tools, in a very compact and orderly arrangement.  The room itself
may filter out light from the monastery if desired, so an observer's eyes
doesn't need to constantly adjust when looking at the dark sky and nearby
light sources.  The room itself is decked out with various decorations of
Kai Lore and star charts, and the like.  It's absolutely beautiful to
behold.

NOW, can we brainstorm on things we'd like to see in the MC II?  Criticism
of ideas during brainstorming sessions leads to tangents like this.
Thinking critically about the ideas that come up during brainstorming is
appropriate at a later stage.  We don't want to miss the forest for the
trees.

More brainstorming, please.  What would we like to see in the MC II?  What
have we been dying to have the MC I have all these years?
Thanks,
Jason Gaerke

Humph. If we, the Lone Wolf Fans want to create a referance for a game
we enjoy to share with one another, I don't see why we couldn't. It's
like making stats for your Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance setting. The
only problem would come if we tried to sell it.
Cool Sandwich

Actually, you really don't even need a telescope.  For the purposes of 
astrology, naked-eye observations are more than adequate.  Of course, a 
telescope is a nice enhancement, but not necessary.

Besides, how is a Grand Master to exercise this skill in the field if he/she 
has no telescope handy?

Brian Norshire

A telescope is practically useless for Astrology purposes. What you need
uis something to determine relative positions, and you can't do that
with a Telescope. (Even in a building that's far beyond the technology
of the Middle Ages.)

A teslescope lets you see more objects, but to deterime positions it's
useless. (Exempting very advanced telescopes with inbuilt positioning.)

So I think there doesn't need to be a Telescope in a Kai Observatory. It
seems superfluous.

> Besides, how is a Grand Master to exercise this skill in the field if he/she
> has no telescope handy?
> 

Good point. Basically, an astrologer is interested in relative positions
in degrees. That's something I guess anybody can learn to estimate with
some practise. Handheld tools (sextant and astrolabes and similar) with
fixed scalings are handy for beginners.

And you do not determine positions with middle-ages telescopes. Again
telescopes magnifies things but they're useless for determining
positions, which is the only thing we're interested in.

A further note is that stars move very little in the sky. It's the
planets, the moon and the sun that moves. The stars are mostly
considered fix points from which you determine the positions of the
objects that move faster.

Robert Ekblad

The problem with novels as opposed to gamebooks is that the former
needs much more depth, more character... the 'you' of the gamebook
player is a characterless mask, and that doesn't work in novels.
Hence the creation of Qinefer and Alyss, the progression of
Lone Wolf as he matures and the fleshing out of all the
'hollow men' NPCs of the gamebooks.  Hence _The Birthplace_,
where Qinefer (if I recall correctly) can see the imprisoning
structure of the gamebook, a determined universe which she can
step outside of...
I think Dever realised he couldn't write the novels himself, or
didn't trust his own abilities as a writer.  John Grant/Paul Barnett
tried to fill out the books, but the extra detail doesn't really
match.  I wonder whether novelizing the series was a good idea in
the first place.  The best approach to take with the Legends books
is to forget the gamebooks, forget it's about Lone Wolf, and read
them as separate novels.  Then you may actually enjoy them.

People who did like Legends might like to try _Albion_ and
_The World_, both by John Grant (the second is very good, but relies
on the first which isn't so hot).  There's also a newer series out
by Paul Barnett, which I look forward to reading some time.

--hieronymus

I actually liked the legends. Yeah, it contradicts the gamebooks, sometimes
severly, but they're Magnamund, and they were done really well. There's one
thing that really bugs me, though. LW dying. They should have reserved his
death for something more heroic, and not just getting his throat slit by
thugs. Like, maybe dying at...well, somewhere more heroic!;)

Sam Bowker

As novels they are not bad, expanding the world and being a good, mind 
provoking read. However, I would not rely on them for information on the 
Lone Wolf World.

Gabriel Seah

So far, here are the items that people have expressed an interest in seeing
in the MC II
(remember, these are just ideas and we are by no means carving anything into
stone):

*Updated timeline

*In depth analysis of the New Order Kai/Kai Monastery II Drawing

*Historical Analysis : Fall of the Darkland Empire

*Updated Statistics of the nations

*New gamebook, similar in length to the Banedon adventure?

*More detail on the Army of Sommerlund?

*New: Monster Manual: Details some monsters of Magnamund?

*Updated Giak Language: Johnathan Blake showcases his work?

* Lone Wolf's Rogue's Gallery.-- Focus on the really big bad guys he's had
to face.

*A short (very short) summary on each book in the series (this is valuable,
particularly if we are going to refer to events and books which many Lone
Wolf fans might not have access to, like Books 21+).

*Short pieces on other cultures within Magnamund, particularly ones which
have been featured in Lone Wolf books, yet never really developed in the
past (i.e. the Vakeros).

*A complilation of all the maps from the various books (this comes close to
occuring at certain Internet site, but I still find copies that are at one
site and no another).

*Some short stories on the order of the ones in the old MC, but pertaining
to folk in other lands (a lot of milage can be obtained out of this idea
alone, I imagine).

*An assembled treatise on the various types of magic in Magnamund, their
sources, similarities, and differences.
+++++++++++++ (did I miss anyone's thoughts?)+++++++

Any more Ideas or thoughts on things we'd like to see?

Once we have our brainstormed ideas, we can start to have volunteers work on
these projects.  And since this MC II has no constraints from money hungry
publishers, we are only limited in length by the volunteering spirit of KW,
and staying true to the writings of Joe Dever.

Thanks
Jason Gaerke

We still need the cool, fun games to play like that bar fight :)  I
loved that game so much, it kicked ass. Anything possible was available as a
weapon, that's the way it should be.

Jason Leonard

I'm sorry but unfortunatly I never had the original MC, so can I assume that 
the Banedon adventure quoted was from this book? Could anyone fill me in on 
this possibly. If anyone is interested, I began writing a Brotherhood 
adventure involving a new character which Jonathon Blake was going to put up 
on his Desert Lynx site but a combination of too much work and too little 
time never allowed me to finish it. Is this the sort of thing people are 
after for MC II?

Regards,

Mark Robins

> I'm sorry but unfortunatly I never had the original MC, so can I
> assume that the Banedon adventure quoted was from this book? Could
> anyone fill me in on this possibly. 

Sure.  The Banedon adventure was a mini-gamebook at the back of the
Magnamund Companion.  It consisted of 80 sections.  At the beginning, you
rolled for CS and EP and chose items, just like in the Lone Wolf books.  
However, you chose 5 out of 10 Brotherhood Spells, rather than Kai
Disciplines (which makes sense, since Banedon is a magician :-).

That reminds me.  I wonder if Joe Dever is still planning on doing a
Banedon gamebook series, as he mentioned in his interview at the Kai
Monastery.  I suppose we'll have to see if the Lone Wolf series gets a
second lease on life first.

> If anyone is interested, I began writing a Brotherhood adventure
> involving a new character which Jonathon Blake was going to put up on
> his Desert Lynx site but a combination of too much work and too little
> time never allowed me to finish it. Is this the sort of thing people
> are after for MC II?

Sounds interesting.  I won't speak for MC 2, since I'm not really involved
with it at the moment, but I would read it (assuming that real life allows
you sufficient time to finish it).

Mark J. Laird

What I would like to read in a possible MC II ?

1. A brief timeline of the period 5050-5080 (or 5084), with many details of
the Darkland's War (5068-5075)

2. More informations about non-Kaï orders : Toran's Brotherhood, Ancient
Magi, Bautar's Herbalists, Cenerian Druids, etc

3. A little encyclopedia of Magnamund : fauna, flora, bestiary, climates,
tree of languages, arts & leisure, ...

4. The geopolitics changes occured since 5050 (new leaders and new regimes).

Just a question, because I've make my come back on the list only since the
last week : WHO will write the MC II ? Joe Dever himself or a collective of
fans (Kaiwisdom) ???

Fabrice Cadillon

>Just a question, because I've make my come back on the list only since the
>last week : WHO will write the MC II ? Joe Dever himself or a collective of
>fans (Kaiwisdom) ???

*** All very good suggestions for MC II content.
*** As far as WHO will write the MC II, it won't be me.  I'm only
coordinating the effort (I guess I've been nominated because no one else has
volunteered and I'm the one who brought up the initial idea anyway.)
*** The MC II will have to be written by the collective efforts of LW's
dedicated fans.  There is a lot of enthusiasim out there, so we should be
able to work together to make the things we've always wanted to see in a MC.
Some of the contributions are likely to be smaller and one person could
handle the task.  Larger contributions will require the efforts of many
people.

Keep the ideas rolling in for the MC II.  Next week I'll summarize
everyone's ideas and see if we can get volunteers to start working on all of
the great ideas.
Thanks
Jason Gaerke

This is what I'd like to see published in MC II (even if I did not read
MC I either, considering that in Italy it had never been published):

-Complete time table of the latest years (since when MC I stopped)
-Maps of the new monastery
-Possibly maps of the most important cities (Holmgard, Toran,
Hammerdal...)
-History of non kai orders (Elder Magi, Brotherhood, Cenerese Druids...)

-Organization of the Giak armies and Drakkar armies
-Folklore of the people in Magnamund (also Southern Magnamund eventually
using GS books as source)

And that should be all. I do not know if any of the point before was
already present in MC I, if so I'm sorry. If anything else should come
to my mind I'll post it to the list.
By two weeks I should finish my university exams for this year so if I
can help in any way I may try to do it.

Steel Phoenix aka Matteo Udina

What I'd like to see for the MC is this:
*A pronunciation guide (we'll have to ask Joe about this one)
*A timeline split up into Northern and Southern Magnamund 
*A listing of the Kai weapons (for people who don't know them)
*That's all I can think of at the moment. If it's a fan writing, then
I'd be happy to help.

Luke Goaman-Dodson

I suggest that the different elements of MC II should be written by
workgroups (or individuals) defined according to each one preferences and /
or specialities.
For example, if there are some guys interested by linguistics, they should
form a virtual workgroup wich will work on the tree of languages and the
several idioms.
May be these workgroups should correspond by direct e-mail and not on the
list, because the debates (had and) will seriously increase the daily amount
of mails on the list... The other way is to state clearly the theme in the
mail's object (like it's already made by most of the list members).

Personally, I've begun some little works (in french) about the colonization
of Magnamund by all the different peoples (Aluvian, Vaderish, etc). I'd like
to work on the following themas :
* daily life on Magnamund (settlements, food, clothes, trade, arts & crafts,
etc)
* military (I'm a former wargamer and I like military history)

Ha, I've also made a text about magic on Magnamund. I will buy a good
translation dictionary (french / english) and translate it at once...

Fabrice

PS : someone wrote that, at Ulnar's death, Lonewolf shall become Lord
Protector of Magnamund. I believe that it's rather a brother / uncle /
nephew of Ulnar whom will become the new king. In LW 4, it's said that "Oren
Vanalund is fifth in the royal succession order". May be it's the Baron of
Toran or Anskaven whom shall be King (or a Baron's son / daughter).
Furthermore, I really don't think that Lonewolf can hold such a plurality of
offices : Leader of Kaï Order and Lord Protector of Sommerlund.
For the Dessi, the country is led by the Magi Regnanti (Council of Elder
Wizards) but the spiritual leader of the Ancient Magi is their oldest member
(Rimoah). I don't think that Rimoah can rule Dessi while he's "often" out of
the country.

Fabrice Cadillon

How good is your French though? Or I should say, how much French do you
know? If you're going to translate it to English, it helps to already know
the language well so you can re-arrange word for word translations to make
more sense, and so you can figure out things better from the context. If you
need any help I can offer some...I'm not bad with my French, but it's been a
while...

Jason Leonard

Hello, I've compiled a listing of all of the things that people have
expressed and interest for the Magnamund Companion II (see attached html
file).   We are at the part where people have to work together to make this
thing happen. The idea is that people will gather into workgroups to handle
the larger items, and the smaller projects could be handled solo, but it
would be nice to have someone check your work..  I am not the editor of this
project because I lack the time and knowledge, so PLEASE make sure that your
work is accurate to established facts.  If you are unsure, ask someone on
the KaiWisdom mailing list.

E-mail the KaiWisdom mailing list if you are interested on working on a
particular line item (see attached HTML file). Hopefully other people will
want to join efforts and the workgroups will be formed. I'll keep track of
who is doing what.  Once the workgroups are formed, give me an estimate of
when you think you will be able to complete your part of the project.

The workgroups should use discretion about openly discussing their topic on
the KW mailing list.  Having a large audience is a great way to get ideas,
but also run the risk of bogging down the KW list needlessly.  Also consider
that it is impossible to please everyone and that we want to complete this
project in a timely manner or it will never be done.

I'll send out an updated file later.  If there are no volunteers for a line
item, it means that particular part of this project will not be completed.
Thanks
Jason Gaerke

I could volunteer to do a short story/gamebook, but one that showcases a darker
side of Lone Wolf, like a drakkar rising, or perhaps a lighter side, like that
of a Knight of the White Mountain.  

Or, if there are no voluteers I could do a short summary of the Lone Wolf books
#1-28, Grey Star #1-4, Legends of Lone Wolf #1-5 (U.K. versions, that would be
up to "The Claws of Helgedad), the original Magnamund Companion, and LoLW #8. 
The rest would need to be done of the other books seeing that those are the ones
that I have and I don't possess the others, but that could be a large chunk of
the summaries right there.

Sean-Robert Shaw

I'm also writing summaries about the human peoples history (+ Drakkarims).
In fact, it's a synthesis of the nations description find in MC & MC
Postscript (thanks Jonathan to have put it on the Oasis).

I will try to make my own homepage on the web. It would be named "The City
of Duadon" and should group all my works about Magnamund :
- Magic on Magnamund
- Human history (summary)
- A "map" of Duadon (spare)
- A role-playing game scenario (Eldenor MS 5055).
- French covers

This site will be in English or French/English, excepted the scenario (it
will take too much time to translate) and the map.

If I can't make my homepage, I will send these works in order that they will
appear in the e-zine (Rising Sun) or in any site of the web ring, so
everybody will be allowed to consult them and criticize.

Fabrice Cadillon

On this item you should probably describe the monsters. It's not that
important that you give CS and EP scores, but if you do you would have
to convert CS and EP to one scale.

If you use an enemy in the Kai series as a base, you need to add about
+3-4 CS to that enemy to get the CS in the Magnakai series.

In the grand master series you would need to add +10-15 CS at a quick
guess, and about the same for the new order series for the same enemy.

In some cases you add a lot more than that in others you do not. Compare
a Kraan in LW 1 (CS 16, EP 25) to a Kraan in LW 25 (CS 35, EP 40), or
three Kraan in LW 14 (CS=45, EP=60)

It should on the other hand be said that the Kraan is one of the worst
examples of "accelerating CS".

The Lone Wolf ERPG will develop an enemy list with CS and EP for most
enemies and peoples, we'll be happy to contribute this list to the
Magnamund Companion II project.

In addition I've made a model over the number of Kai Lords at the Kai
Monastery at different times, which I could contribute to the Magnamund
Companion II.

Finally, I've made a balanced combat table which is symmetrical for both
fighters which I could contribute.

Regards,
Robert Ekblad

It was already debated there but you know that there are contradictions
between the different sources about timeline for the Shadakine Empire and
the Grey Star's story...

MC : Grey Star leaves Lorn in MS 5050
LW 22 : Shasarak died in MS 5054
GS 4 : Grey Star has spent seven years in Daziarn. So, Grey Star left Lorn
in (approximately) 5047.
GS 1 : Grey Star found by Shianti the same day of Shasarak's crowning and
Grey Star is 16 when he leaves Lorn. So he born in 5034 or 5031.
MC : Karnali enter in rebellion after the defeat of Sharasak's troops during
the Battle of the Tentarium.
If Grey Star left Lorn in 5050, it seems strange that he could encounter
Madin Rendalim the same year that Lone Wolf do in Hammerdal (it's a great
travel...) but it's possible...

What were your conclusions about all this stuff ? Should the date in LW 22
be considered like an error or, otherwise like a correction made by Joe
Dever ?

Fabrice Cadillon

> If Grey Star left Lorn in 5050, it seems strange that he could encounter
> Madin Rendalim the same year that Lone Wolf do in Hammerdal (it's a great
> travel...) but it's possible...

Actually, it's _really_ unlikely, since LW leaves the monastery on Fehmarn
and reaches Hammerdal about a month later, which would make it the end of
April.  And since Rendalim also had to administer the cure for the Red Death
all around Durenor and Ragadorn (it's already been gone a while when LW
reaches Ragadorn), this makes it effectively impossible.

> What were your conclusions about all this stuff ? Should the date in LW 22
> be considered like an error or, otherwise like a correction made by Joe
> Dever ?

I've always held that the Companion is in error on this one.

Ben Krefetz

> R Pentney wrote:
> >
> >All this talk of printing off the old books - what about printing off 
> > >Magnamund Companion II? I'd be interested in getting a copy - we >could
> > >
> >all pay the bare costs and that way no profit would be made. >Any
> >thoughts?
>

About 7ish years ago the Lone Wolf Fan club sold photocopied 
versions of the US MC and only charged for material and P&P (as I 
remember.) The pictures in this were all B&W  and some were not 
very good quality. I have been absent from the list for a while so am 
not sure if I am covering old ground (so I apologize if I am) but if Joe 
allowed it then maybe he, or his publishers, will allow it again.

Regards

Sam Julian

I thought of a By Any Other Name style bit with a table of Sommlending
names. It sounds pretty useless so I'd recommend not doing it. 

I think the date of Skull of Agarash is MS5077, though I can't be sure. 

Another thing I thought of is a listing of all the types of Agarashi.
This could be in the MM. 
-- 
Luke

I'm supposed to be helping out with the Rogues Gallery, but I'm
leaving for vacation tomorrow and will be back on the 14th.
If there's anything left to be done when I get back, let me know,
I'd be glad to help. E-mail me at griffin@swstory.com.

Real quick, off the top of my head, here's a list of some
major bad guys (I'm sure I missed some):

Vonotar the Traitor - 2,3
Barraka - 4
Zakhan Kimah - 5,9
Darklord Haakon - 5
Roark - 6,10,20
Lord Zahda - 7
The Chaos Master - 11
Dark Lord Gnagg - 12
Dark Lord Kraagenskul -12
Arch Druid Cadak - 13,16,20
Warlord Magnaarn - 15
Shamath - 16,20
Deathlord Ixiataaga - 17
Wolf's Bane - 19
Zantaz - 20
Kekataag the Avenger - 19,20
Dark Lord Naar - 18,19,20
Baron Sadanzo - 23
Autarch Sejanoz - 27,28

Some of those books could be wrong as well, and I haven't read 22, and
24-28.

Griffin Bryant

I think it would be good to rank the bad guys - not in terms of fighting
ability, but in overall 'badness' (based on the threat they posed and the
ongoing nature of the characters)

Some of the higher ranking ones in my list would be (in no particular order);
Vonotar (whom was also in bk11 btw), Zargarna (obviously a biggy - spelt the end
of the kai),  Roark (love to hate him), Cadak (the only threat worth a bean in
the Grandmaster series), Shamath (nice legs honey), Kimah and Haakon (i put them
togeather due to the evil aliance they formed - the war itself and the invasion
of the lands surrounding Vassagonia would be one of the biggeest threats in the
series).

The number one spot would have to belong to Naar of course.

Gavin Gallot

>Real quick, off the top of my head, here's a list of some
>major bad guys (I'm sure I missed some):

>Vonotar the Traitor - 2,3  and 11 as you pointed out

Also Darklord Zarngarz(sp?) -Book2

>Barraka - 4

Hmm I hardly remember this guy. He was the one who tried to raise the spirit 
of the Vashna right?

Maybe we should add Darklord of Vashna,everyone seems to be trying to bring 
him back to life!

>Zakhan Kimah - 5,9

t he was tough in Book 9 in terms of CS scores

>Darklord Haakon - 5

>Roark - 6,10,20

I think he or at least his spirit was in another book, either in 13-19 or 
one of the new order books

>Lord Zahda - 7

was he Mad and Evil or merely Mad? I think he should have a rather 
interesting back story, could he be regenade Elder Magi?

>The Chaos Master - 11
>Dark Lord Gnagg - 12
>Dark Lord Kraagenskul -12

There was one more darklord LW had to kill (optimally using a specialised 
arrow) b4 facing Gnagg.Even though he didn't play a large part in the story 
i think killing a darklord is quite significant even for someone like LW

I think LW has killed a total of 5 darklords(including the one he killed at 
long range with the sommersword in Book2) directly in his career ,almost 
half of them!

>Arch Druid Cadak - 13,16,20

>Warlord Magnaarn - 15

Minor evil. quite insignificant I though for someone of LW's stature of 
Grandmaster at the time. I always wonder why a warlord holding only one 
doomstone could be a threat a LW who has the essence of 7 lore stones!

>Shamath - 16,20

>Deathlord Ixiataaga - 17

I really liked the deathlord Ixiataaga, too bad he was killed off only in 
one book.He really looked like a threat beyond even the darklords

How about that Demon lord (I can't recall the name) that Roark serves?
He appears first in Book 10 then in Book 17 I think

>Wolf's Bane - 19

If we are doing GS as well...Wolf bane reminds me of the minor image of GS 
in book 3 j***, who I thought had more character than Wolf Bane

>Zantaz - 20
>Kekataag the Avenger - 19,20

I think we can add a ton of other lords of darkness in Book 20.

>Dark Lord Naar - 18,19,20
>Baron Sadanzo - 23
>Autarch Sejanoz - 27,28

Also in runewar book 24?, the guy who found the runes or something..

Book 25- The spirit that captured LW..Z***** i think

>Some of those books could be wrong as well, and I haven't read 22, >and 
>24-28.

Also it seems that the list is merely confined to Humaniod  creatures. How 
about adding some of the unusual beasts that LW has fought? But then again 
this is a Rogue gallery not a Bestiary List or we could add heleghast stuff 
like that

Just wondering does MC2 have a list of the most powerful magical ,legendly 
weapons,items as well?

As you can see I don't have my books with me now.I'll post a complete list 
on saturday 14-15 Aug

Aaron Tay

The way I envision the gallery is a bunch of scanned-in illustrations found 
in the books.  Any enemy that is pictured would work, like (books 3 and 20 
come to mind) the javek, crystal frostwyrm, ice demon, akraa'neonor, 
Nza'pok, the K|nae, Huan'zhor, Kekataag, Zantaz, etc.  Also some recurring 
villians like Gnaag (the pic in book 8 is drastically different than the one 
in 12, hmm?), Cadak, Shamath, and Sejanoz.  Of course, the gallery should 
contain Naar himself, pictured in the unabridged version of #19.
Jason Valasek

On Sun, 15 Aug 1999, Griffin Bryant wrote:

> Vonotar the Traitor - 2,3,11
> Darklord Zagnara - 2
> Barraka - 4
> Darklord Vashna - 4,16

I think that's kinda pushing it.  He never actually shows up.

> Zakhan Kimah - 5,9
> Darklord Haakon - 5
> Roark - 6,10,(19 or 20 as a ghost?)

He's a ghost in 18, when you travel through Amory back to Sommerlund to kill
the dragons.

> Lord Zahda - 7
> Demonlord Tagazin - 10,17
> The Chaos Master - 11
> Darklord Kraagenskul -12
> Darklord Taktaal - 12
> Darklord Gnagg - 12

Considering you're listing even when characters just appear, you should
include 10 (at the end) and 8 (when you see his face in one of those
communication bowls).

> Arch Druid Cadak - 13,16,20

And of course at the end of 14.

> Warlord Magnaarn - 15
> Shamath - 16,20
> Deathlord Ixiataaga - 17
> Dark God Naar - 18,19,20
> Wolf's Bane - 19
> Kekataag the Avenger - 19,20
> Nza'pok - 20
> Rhunadan and Jantoor, the Kunae - 20
> Huan'zhor the Dragonlord - 20
> Zantaz - 20
> Avarvae the Tormentress - 20
> Tzor - 20
> Baron Sadanzo - 23
> Lord Vandyan - 24
> Zorkaan the Soultaker - 24,25
> Xaol the Necromancer - 25
> The Shom'zaa - 26
> Autarch Sejanoz - 27,28

Well, to add the major Grey Star villains that I can think of off the top of
my head:

Mother Magri - 1
Kleasa - 1,2
The Screaming God - 3 (should this count?)
Chaos Master - 3
Jahksa - 3
Shasarak - 4

Ben Krefetz

Thanks to everyone who pointed out the things I missed!
Here is an updated list for your further inspection:

Vonotar the Traitor - 2,3,11
Darklord Zagnara - 2
Barraka - 4
Darklord Vashna - 4,16
Zakhan Kimah - 5,9
Darklord Haakon - 5
Roark - 6,10,(19 or 20 as a ghost?)
Lord Zahda - 7
Demonlord Tagazin - 10,17
The Chaos Master - 11
Darklord Kraagenskul -12
Darklord Taktaal - 12
Darklord Gnagg - 12
Arch Druid Cadak - 13,16,20
Warlord Magnaarn - 15
Shamath - 16,20
Deathlord Ixiataaga - 17
Dark God Naar - 18,19,20
Wolf's Bane - 19
Kekataag the Avenger - 19,20
Nza'pok - 20
Rhunadan and Jantoor, the Kunae - 20
Huan'zhor the Dragonlord - 20
Zantaz - 20
Avarvae the Tormentress - 20
Tzor - 20
Baron Sadanzo - 23
Lord Vandyan - 24
Zorkaan the Soultaker - 24,25
Xaol the Necromancer - 25
The Shom'zaa - 26
Autarch Sejanoz - 27,28

As for who should be included in this Gallery, first consider the James Bond
movies.
You have your Masterminds (Goldfinger for example), your henchmen (Oddjob,
etc.),
and all those soldiers with guns who just get shot. I think the Rogues
Gallery should
cover Lone Wolf's Evil Masterminds and Henchmen, but not the soldier-types.
A separate
section could cover the Beasts and Monsters. I think that would be cool.
Thoughts?

I also think the Rogues Gallery should consist of a brief write up of the
above enemies,
including their CS and EP scores, what they did, how they did it, their
impact on the books,
etc. I'd like to get at least one picture of each enemy. I have a scanner so
it shouldn't be
too much trouble. Ranking them is also a good idea that I heard.

Grey Star bad guys should be here too as suggested, but that's not my
department since I've never read
any of those books. Maybe Legends baddies too, were any new ones introduced?

Thank you, that is all.

Griffin Bryant

That last message on villains got me thinking-- is anyone assigned to
compile a list of allies in the gamebooks?  That is, people who actually
fight alongside LW/GS/GM or else help them out in some fairly significant
way.  If no one else is doing it, I'd like to.

Ben Krefetz