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Kai Wisdom and Fighting Fantasy Mailing List stuff #4

Robert mused:

> What if there are multiple and, for
> lack of a better word, shorter ways to complete an adventure.  Here is my
> suggestion:  if necessary, we should have multiple solutions on Mark's website.
> One solution might be for the quickest path; another solution might be for
> collecting the most money.  What do you think?

	There are, surely, *easier* ways of completing each gamebook, since
the claim is made in many of them that there exists a one true path, which,
if you find it, should enable you to complete the book with minimal stats
and minimal risks. Trying to *find* this one true path for each book would,
I should think, be a tough challenge. I can't offer any specific references
as I sit here typing this, but, I can imagine there are some options in
the books for which the risk assessment would be very difficult: for 
example, there is a magical sword hidden in a chest, which would be of great
benefit later in the book, but which entails hazarding various dire perils to
acquire. So, is this risk to be included in the one true path?

	There are other variables to be taken into account: if you have a
choice  of Skill, Stamina, and Luck potions to take along at the start, 
which is the most useful to have? and if the adventure involves a visit 
to a market, which items exactly would you be best advised to buy, and how 
would you best obtain the money?

	My point is that finding the one true path may well be more than
merely a case of mapping out an optimal sequence of paragraph numbers to
follow.

Graham Hart

Aussie Rules Football: I've only seen a few games on ESPN2 at like 2 in the morning here.  Usually during the summer when I'm home and I can stay up late.  They always have foreign sports on late at night on that channel, like sumo wrestling or 
British Premier League football.

I always noticed that the two outer posts were shorter than the to centre 
ones, but there's also a square in front of the two centre posts.  I always 
thought that the one-point score (which I think is called an 'under'?) was 
for getting the ball into that square, but then I figured why bother going 
for the 1 point when you can just kick it through the big posts and get 6?  
So the 1 point score is if they try for the six and miss, they still get a 
point for getting it between the small posts, then?

I'll have to try to watch it more often, if I can find out when and if it 
has a regular time slot on TV.  Thanks, Tristan.  I understand it a little 
better now. I think we get the Australian commentators, but to be honest, I don't even 
really pay attention.  I think they're Australian because they have really 
heavy accents and I can't understand some of it.  We also get soccer games 
with British commentators.  That's interesting because sometimes they use 
British slang that I have no clue what it means.  And they don't call it 
halftime like we do (one word), they call it half-time (two words).
Jason Valasek

Tristan told me a little about Australian Rules football, and that just 
reminded me about the differences between American soccer and the way it's 
played everywhere else in the world.  For those of you unaware of the 
differences...

In standard soccer, known as football everywhere except the US, the clock 
starts at 0:00 and works its way up to 45:00.  The clock runs continuously, 
even through injuries.  There are no commercials, which is why all those 
billboards are all over the place.  There is extra time at the end called 
'injury time,' which the referee adds to the half to make up for time lost 
during injuries and such.  Then at the second half, the clock starts at 
45:00, no matter how much inury time was in the first half, and ends at 
90:00, plus injury time.

In American soccer, the clock starts at 45:00 and counts down.  It stops for 
injuries, although I don't think there are any commercials.  But still, 
there is no injury time, and the clock runs the wrong way.
Jason Valasek
 

Mark:

I noticed you do not have a review for the Warlock of Firetop Mountain.  Here is
one.  Enjoy.

THE WARLOCK OF FIRETOP MOUNTAIN
Review by Robert La Vallie
Review = 10

Living in the United States in the early 1980's, the only type of non-linear
books was Choose Your Own Adventure.  And even though I had not even reached my
teenage years, I found these books to be juvenile, simple, and rather tedious.

But then, in 1982, a line of books was created that changed the method of
reading forever.  This line was known as Fighting Fantasy.  And the beginning of
this line was the Warlock of Firetop Mountain.  The title alone was the reason
for my purchase of this book.  For this 12-year-old, the idea that I would be
venturing into a mountain with a fiery top, inside of which dwelled a dragon and
a warlock was compelling.  Add to this sword-and-sorcery concocture that my
quest was to slay a dragon, defeat a warlock, and obtain a treasure and I was
more than eager to begin my journey into this rocky realm of high adventure.

But then, as I read the rules, I became even more enthralled.  I determined my
own skill, stamina, and luck?  How would a low skill affect my adventure, I
wondered.  How much would a high stamina benefit me, I reflected.  Would an
average luck score be enough to complete this adventure, I contemplated.

And so, as my character began his quest into Firetop Mountain, so did I begin my
59-volume journey in the lands of Fighting Fantasy.  My traverses into this
unnatural wonder were compelling and invigorating.  Which path do I take?
Should I enter this room?  Will key #66 be the one of the keys that unlocks the
treasure that awaits me at the completion of this quest? (It isn't.)

And here I am, hacking and whacking away at creatures that have the audacity to
cross my path, and I'm feeling pretty confident until...

the river.

What is a river doing inside of a mountain?  And this river is no mere trickle
of aquatic pleasure.  No, it is a deluge of torrential rage, containing
crocodiles and pirhannas.  How do I get across?  A swim, perhaps?  Or, maybe I
can traverse these subterranean terrors by traipsing on that rickety,
broken-down bridge.   Better yet, I'll pay the ferry man.  What?  I thought the
price was two gold pieces.  I'll not stand for that.  Oh, OK, don't get your
hair out of place, I'll find some way to get across that river.

Exhausted from my travels thus far, surely, the end to my quest is near, right?
What maze?  You mean I have to escape this maze?  Alas and alack, here I go
amidst these pathways of puzzlement.  Shall I search for a secret passage?  What
do you mean there is none and I have to fight a random creature?  What madness
is this?  I am fatigued beyond belief, let me just open this door and rest
inside of this room.  A minotaur?  And I have no red cape.  Yet another creature
to decimate.  Perhaps it is the key for my success.

As the hours increase, so does my enervation.  Also, spending all this time
within these catacombs of confusion has chilled my bones.  Ah, let me just warm
myself against that fire up ahead.  A dragon?  It certainly has a spell on me.
Or should I say, I have a spell on it.  Well, look who's here but the Warlock
himself.  It's too bad we can't see eye to eye.  And the treasure awaits.
Confidently, I insert my keys into the locks and turn.  The treasure is mine,
all mine.

What?  Only two of the keys turn?  But, I have no other keys.  I travelled
inside of rocky pathways, crossed a river, traipsed through a maze, slayed a
dragon, and defeated the warlock.  Where is my happy ending?  No, instead I am
stuck here, penniless, inside of this mountain forever.

This adventure is just that, in the truest sense of the word.  Not only must you
overcome all of the obstacles above, but if you do not have the correct three
keys, you are doomed to spend your earthly existence trapped within this
mountain.  Even at the age of 28, the novel is both compelling and enticing.
Your missteps, mishaps, and mistakes are anything but few and far between.  The
action is fast and furious.  And if you are not equally fast and furious, while
still retaining a mite of logic and common sense, Firetop Mountain will not be
your source of financial freedom, but rather a cavernous coffin.

Robert la Vallie

Hello All!

This is for all of you who love Fighting Fantasy and love math.  Well, for those
of you who like math.  Well, even for those who do not like math, you may like
this.  Aw, just skip it.

I will be creating the Ultimate Fighting Fantasy math puzzle.

Now, I'm going to wait on this for a while.  Why, you may ask with baited
breath.  I wonder how baited breath smells?  If it's anything like fish, then
that's pretty gross.  Anyway...

Seriously, Gilles mentioned something to me about creating a puzzle.  I don't
want to give too much info away--it's his puzzle and he should announce it.
Also, if his idea is similar to mine, since he came up with it first, then he
should be the first to post it.

But, assuming his idea and my idea vary, I will soon create the Ultimate
Fighting Fantasy Math Puzzle.  Actually, I don't know if you should enter.
Personally, I don't think any of you can solve it.  You THINK you know Fighting
Fantasy???  You ain't seen Fighting Fantasy questions like this.  You'll never
see Fighting Fantasy questions like this.  None of this simple-simon stuff.
We're talking meat-and-potatoes, manly questions.  For example:

In terms of numbers, what do Warlock of Firetop Mountain and Deathtrap Dungeon
have in common?

If you cannot answer that in Warlock of Firetop Mountain, the total of the 3
correct keys is 321, and you add the digits together and get 6 (1+2+3=6), and
Deathtrap Dungeon is the 6th book of the series, don't even bother.  That's
right, we're talking he-man, pick-you-up-and-slam-you-down,
we-don't-need-no-stinking-badges,
you-gonna-shoot-those-pistols-or-whistle-dixie, go-ahead-make-my-day, type of
questions.

So, I dare anyone (and that means YOU, pilgrim) to answer me and say you would
like to take on the Ultimate Fighting Fantasy math puzzle.  I don't expect any
responses.  This is the ultimate puzzle for the ultimate fan.

Are you the ultimate fan?

Well, are you?

Well then, stop sitting on the couch eating bon-bons, and step up to the mike.
Do you have what it takes?

Well, do you???

So, what are you waiting for?

Later,

Robert La Vallie

One reader e-mailed me a question:

Are there any mistakes in the numerical passages of Fighting Fantasy?

Well, I came across an error in Caverns of the Snow Witch.  It's not about a
numerical passage.  It is toward the end, when you are with the Shaman.  If you
don't have the dragon's egg, the Shaman cannot make a dragon's egg concoction
for you.  However, once you complete the next quest, the reference reads, the
concoction helped.

Believe it, or not.

Robert La Vallie

I guess that it was about 2 months ago now that I ordered six books
from Senator Publications. In about two weeks they sent me 1 of the books
I asked for plus a copy of The Hunger of Sejanoz, which I already had.

        What I actually liked most about it, even more than getting The Legacy 
of Vashna, was the personal check from Joe Dever himself made out to me
for $50.00 - the extra money I sent for the books I didn't receive!  I love it!

        As a matter of fact I liked having a personal check from Joe Dever so much
that I had my wife, who's a graphic artist, take it to work and make a color print
of it, front and back, which she then laminated and which I now use as a bookmark!

        I of course cashed the original, but a copy of a 50 dollar check from JD as a 
personal bookmark is really fun, especially when reading his books!

        So sure, there were 5 books that I didn't get but I try to look at the positive 
end of things. There was one I DID get, plus I got the bonus of a truly unexpected
and novel souvenir.

The unbreakable,

Steven Kunz

--- Tristan Taylor <ttaylor@tps.vic.edu.au> wrote:
> Most people would be probably sick of this, but for
> the benefit of the new
> people, when I ordered LW #6 (which I have never
> encountered in Australia as
> yet) from them in June last year, I received prompt
> (2 weeks) and correct
> delivery. And I live all the way down here in
> Australia.
> 
> Tristan Taylor

G'day Tristan,

I find it amazing that you would have not have found a
#6 in these parts.  6 was my very first one (a Beaver
version).  When I bought 7,11,12 (Red Fox), I believe
there was a book 6 there as well.  BTW, I now have
books 1-28.  When I got my #22 in the mail from Dan
Cutler, I just stared at it for ages and sort of
giggled.  Every time I go past my bookshelf and see it
I can't believe it is there.

Seeya,
Ryan

The location descriptions in Titan contain quite a lot of detail about
many of the areas on the planet, but there are lots more which are not
even mentioned.
  I do not have the book with me at the moment, so I can not give many
examples, but one obvious one does spring to mind: the moon.
  Titan has a single moon. It is a rocky body, not a bright light in the
sky or anything strange like that, because it is possible to end up there
inadvertantly in the Crown of Kings (I can not remember the reference
no.). Nor can I remember whether the moon had a breathable atmosphere,
but I seem to think it did. If so, then is it independent of Titan's, or
is the whole of space filled with breathable air in the Titan universe.
  I wonder whether anyone knows of any other references to the moon, or
what important features they think there might be there.

Now that I think about it, the Titan universe seems to have very similar
laws of physics to our own, so maybe the stars in the sky really are other
suns (with their own planets?). If we believe the creation story in Titan,
then this might be rather difficult to account for, but what if the
universe was created by Elim, Ashra and Vuh, who created the stars and the
gods and gave the gods the magical clay (or rather hid it in their garden
for them to find.
  But in this case, they might have created a different set of gods for
each planetary system!
  Yes, I know that the story is only the one which has been passed down to
the mortals through their priests and therefore probably has some of the
more mindboggling aspects toned down for non-divine minds, or maybe even
the gods themselves are misled about parts of the creation story, but I
shall continue to take it as incontravertible fact until someone gives me
a reason not to (that's an invitatin by the way).

And another thing. Just where are the gods supposed to live, anyway? I had
always imagined that they lived right where Titan is in space, but in a
different set of dimensions, or a different "plane of existence", but
would these be tied to any particular place in the corporeal realm at all?
  The location of the First Battle is also contentious. I believe that
according to Titan, it happened on the planet itself, not in another
plane, but where? I thought maybe Kakhabad (or rather the land which would
later become Kakhabad), since this might explain why this land is so
imbued with magical power.

Well, those were just a few of my mental wanderings. I wonder what
everyone else thinks, or indeed whether they have ever thought about it at
all.

Yours
Daniel Williams

At 03:56 PM 5/13/99 +0100, Daniel Williams wrote:
>Now that I think about it, the Titan universe seems to have very similar
>laws of physics to our own, so maybe the stars in the sky really are other
>suns (with their own planets?). 

Well, this is currently the accepted theory. However, there is more than
enough activity on Titan to concentrate on rather than exploring the entire
universe.

>  Yes, I know that the story is only the one which has been passed down to
>the mortals through their priests and therefore probably has some of the
>more mindboggling aspects toned down for non-divine minds, or maybe even
>the gods themselves are misled about parts of the creation story, but I
>shall continue to take it as incontravertible fact until someone gives me
>a reason not to (that's an invitatin by the way).

I believe the creation story too, since Marc Gascoigne is something of a
god in his own right. Not to mention the creative efforts of the other
authors too.

>And another thing. Just where are the gods supposed to live, anyway? I had
>always imagined that they lived right where Titan is in space, but in a
>different set of dimensions, or a different "plane of existence", but
>would these be tied to any particular place in the corporeal realm at all?

I'm going with a different plane of existence, myself. I don't think the
gods need to "live" anywhere in particular, since they aren't really alive
(they can't die). They are probably capable of existing in every point in
the universe, as well as no point in the universe at the same time. Time
and space do not bind the gods.

>  The location of the First Battle is also contentious. I believe that
>according to Titan, it happened on the planet itself, not in another
>plane, but where? 

I also agree the battle occurred on Titan. Although I would guess Khul
instead, since it is somewhat of a wasteland, which we would expect after a
battle. That is of course also related to the "War of the Wizards" on
Allansia.

It seems like you've thought a lot about the legends, and any blank spots
can be reasonably filled in by your comments. Titan does a pretty good job
of laying down the groundwork, which is our common basis.

Mark J. Popp

Legends 5. (Claws of Helgedad)

Briefly.
In Helgedad: The Darklord fights over who the throne of the Darklands
after Zagarnas death. Soon two main contenders for the throne appears:
Haakon and Slutar.

Haakon decides to kidnap Lone Wolf and take him to Helgedad. This plan
succeeds. Haakon keeps Lone Wolf in Helgedad for a long time (a year or
two). LW is kept alive by Haakon's Nadziranim.

In response Slutar tries to kidnap Qinefer but fails because she's gone
to Vassagonia. Carag is in the raiding party, and one of the persons
killed duirng the raid is 'Cloud Maker'. One young Kai proposes to Carag
(who passes on the proposition to Slutar) that instead of kidnapping
Qinefer, the darklord could rescue Lone Wolf from Helgedad.

On the day that LW is to be executed, this plan is executed. Carag and
Slutar's Nadziranim rescues LW from Helgedad. Slutar then sends LW back
to Sommerlund.
However, Haakon intimidates Carag to speak about Slutar's deed in front
of the other Darklords, and Slutar becomes the shamed Darklord, and
Haakon takes the Throne of the Archlands.

-------

Banedon travels to Vassagonia and meets Jenara. They locate the
Birthplace, and they send for help from Sommerlund. Ulnar summons
Qinefer, and sends her to help Jenara and Banedon. Qinefer enters the
Birthplace for the first time, but fails to destroy it.

--------

Alyss travels to Ragadorn and enlists the inn-keeper of the North Star
(an ex-kai lord called Cloud Maker) to help Lone Wolf and Qinefer.
(Cloud Maker is later killed in Slutar's raid of the Kai Monastery.)

Alyss meets a dustworm called Garna. She then travels to the timeplains
to watch how she was born. However, upon arrival she finds her powers
gone. She drifts around the plains and eventually meets the Timehounds.
The Timehounds gain her knowledge, and help her return to the 'birth of
Aon'. During this time a few things happen:

Alyss walks into a tree, which causes the destruction of the Kai
Monastery in MS 5050. Alyss and the Timehounds kills an entity on the
Plain of Light. (Becomes Vashna if I remember correctly.) One of the
Timehounds, Zan, falls through the skies. His soul is seized by Naar and
Zan becomes Agarash the Damned.

At the Birth of Aon, Alyss and Garna meets Ishir and later Naar. Naar
requires that Ishir hands over one of the souls to him, and Ishir hands
over Garna. It appears that Garna is really called Zagarna, and he's to
become a Darklord.

*****

Legends 9. The Tellings.

This is actually four stories.

Viveka's Telling.
The story about Viveka's background.

Lone Wolf's Telling.
How the book of the Magnakai was stolen by Vassagonians and what
happened to them and the book afterwards.

Banedon's Telling.
How he acquired the Sky-Rider. It details his first meetings with the
Dwarves and the Elder Magi.

Carag's Telling.
Details how Gnaag became the new Archlord of the Darklands. (And how he
killed Darklords Unc and Ghurch in the process.)

Robert Ekblad

Hello All!

I thought you mike like to hear a few words from Mr. Jackson:

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Robert:

Thanks for the review. Well written - and I especially appreciated the score!
I'll look out for it appearing on one of the FF websites (which I have now been
to visit several times).

Funny you should mention the river. The river was originally used as the
'halfway point'. Ian wrote from the entrance to the river. I wrote the river
onwards (+ rules + keys). The book nearly got rejected by Penguin when we handed
the two manuscripts in because there was an obvious difference in styles. In the
end I drew the short straw and had to go over Ian's sections re-writing them in
'Jackson style'. That's why WoFTM was the one and only book we wrote together.
It made more sense to write books individually.

Steve Jackson

- How about that 

Robert La Vallie

"Noodnic" in yiddish means "annoyance", or "bothersome"
-Gavin Gallot

Gavin Gallot wrote:
> 
> Ok here's my workings
> 
> The guards equals the Lieutenants plus the loyal servants, divided by two,
> minus one traitor, or
> z = ((x + y) /2) - 1

Shamath's Question is "how many LOYAL SERVANTS guard my throne of
power", thus you shouldn't count (include) the Lieutenants of Night.

Note that the riddle doesn't say anything about the Lieutenants (and
even the Dwellers) so it's possibly that they are guarding the throne
too, but this is irrelevant to the riddle.

If the Lieutenants are not Loyal Servants then they shouldn't be counted
(due to the phrasing of the riddle).

If the Lieutenants are Loyal Servants then they should have been counted
with the dwellers, before they arrived, which is something of a
contradiction. This means that any Lieutenant of the Night that arrives
is NOT a loyal servant.

Or perhaps the following explanation is easier to understand:
If we allow a creature to be both a loyal servant and lieutenant of
night simultaneously then:
On one hand that creature must be in the group that is counted together
with the dwellers.
On the other hand the creature must arrive to the meeting place with the
lieutenants of night.
Thus, the creature must be at two places at once.

 
My conclusion: a creature cannot be both a loyal servant and a
lieutenant of night.

SO the Loyal Servant Guards equals the loyal servants, divided by two
(half of them left with the dwellers) minus one (the traitor).

So z = (x/2) -1

> 
> and, the number of servants is doubled when the lieutenants arrive so
> Y = X + 2
> 

This is ok, but the formula doesn't add anything since y is not known.

> so
> z = ((x + x + 2) /2) -1
> z = ((2x + 2)/2) -1
> z + 1 = (2x + 2) / 2
> 2z + 2 = 2x + 2
> z = x
> 
This answer is not reasonable.

Basically it says that the total number of loyal servant before
executing the traitor is equal to a "sub-group" of the loyal servant
after the traitor has been executed.

So for the solution we have to require that: x >= Z + 1
x >= z + 1  <=> (use z=x, your answer)
z >= z + 1, <=> (subtract z from both sides)
0 >= 1,          which is always false.

You will get:
z = (x/2) - 1      and
z = (x/2) - 1 = ((y-2)/2) - 1 = (y/2) - 2

In my solution you get:
x >= z + 1       <=> (use z = (x/2) - 1)
x >= x/2 - 1 + 1 <=> (simplify)
x >= x/2,            which is true if X > 0

So in order to get the loyal servant who guard the throne you need to
know either the number of total Loyal Servants or the number of
Lieutenants of Night.

If you don't know either then the answer can be any number.

Robert Ekblad

Ok guys, let's get on the bandwagon.
	 

	Let's all write a letter to Red Fox. The question is, what do we want out of them. Endless supplies of Lone Wolf books, of course.
	 

	Now, first things first. We can't just all write a letter and say, "Why don't you publish LW any more". The answer is probably obvious and that's why noone has had a reply. Bookshops probably stopped ordering Lone Wolf books because they weren't selling. As I said in an earlier message, "Who's going to want to buy a gamebook with the number 28 slapped on top of it?". 
	 

	It doesn't matter how good  a book is that has a high number on it, no one will buy it unless they've read it's predecessor. Voyage of the Moonstone should NOT have an ugly 21 slapped on top of it. It is the beginning of a new series, and if you want people to buy it, then you need to name it BOOK 1 of the new series, which it IS.
	 

	Anyway, back to writing the letter. So even if Red Fox did reply and say something like, "Lone Wolf is no longer in print due to lack of demand", where would that get you? Nowhere. What we need to ask is some question that's going to get us somewhere.
	 

	Anyway, somone post the CORRECT address of Red Fox on this email list. We'll all write letters to them. It's easy, just a page each and post it off. The more of us that do it, the better. Let's show how demand for LW is an international issue. This is easy to do. All of us will send a letter. Get your friends to write letters too, the more letters, the better.  
	 

	QUESTION: what should we ask RED FOX, or what should we tell RED FOX. 
	 

	Everyone post your ideas and then we will ALL use those ideas to write good letters. Interest will only dwindle and if we don't do something about it.  Don't let Lone Wolf die, let's revive Lone Wolf and make it bigger than ever! We are the die-hard fans, so let's help Mr Joe Dever get the books back in print!
	 

	Sincerely,
	 

	Lawrence Ritchie

Please read this short corrected version of my previous email
 

EVERYONE: If we don't do anything about getting the books reprinted, interest in Lone Wolf can only decline because noone can get the books. This means no more new readers, and if when all the books are gone, we'll lose interest too. That would be the death of LW unless we act now!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

I agree with Jonathan Blake. We must find out what publishing company Joe is asking to publish his books. Then we need to send really good letters, not just saying how great the books are, but ideas as to why they should be published, eg:
 

 1) There're those of us out there who have been crazy about the books for over 15 years, proving LW is something extraordinary.
 

2) If the series were divided into smaller series, ie. into four groups of six or whatever, and then released, and say, the first series failed then, oh well, they can give up after that. BUT the fact is the books were super popular once and, I believe they can be super popular again. There's a whole new reader market waiting- a new generation of teenagers, and even us dedicated elders :)
 

3) Releasing the whole series as several smaller series will ensure that the later books sell well too(there'll be more number 1s, which are attractive to new readers. The manuscript wouldn't need to change at all because the smaller series would all be linked. What I'm saying is the books would simply be renumbered to show that there are actually several sub-series that make up the super series of 32 books. 
 

4) Just go on to the internet and look at all the sites DEDICATED to Lone Wolf; if the books were re-released there would be INSTANT internet support.
 

5) Gamebooks certainly can work in this day and age, us internet nuts who still like to roll dice are the proof.
 

We need not waste our time sending mail to the old publishers. They will just toss out the mail as soon as they see the words, "Lone Wolf". Why would they do that? Because they are no longer the publishers. They'll just see the mail as a nuisance.
 

So we need to find out who Mr Dever's prospective publishers are, and then we can send sensible letters that also point out how the publisher WILL benefit if they get his books back on the shelves.
 

As Jason Leonard said, if the publishers can smell money, then they might listen.
 

Lawrence Ritchie

Give me some time to myself and I can probably think of quite a powerful letter. I like the idea of everyone sending a letter seperately though. I mean, one letter for everyone to put their name on is pretty effective but I think the point gets across a bit clearer when multiple people bug them with single messages. I know it would get the point across to me, to where I would either end up turning away from it completely, or if I was running a business I might actually listen to what people were saying to ensure that I could make better money.
    Actually, the letter you just wrote here to KaiWisdom is almost perfect for sending to them from yourself. Just modify it's aim so as not to be to the list but to be towards them. But you state your topic well and argue it and support it well. Which is the key to getting people to listen. Not bossing them around but arguing. Especially following the classical scheme - refutation being the most powerful tool. As you've already done, of course, when you argue about HOW they should release them to help them sell money as opposed to how they've been sold/released.
Jason Leonard

Not so many moons ago, I sent two letters off to  Red Fox, with a
matter of months in between the posting of either one. The  subject was
simple: Why was Lone Wolf cancelled? (Yes, I am aware of the  reasons: I
simply wanted to hear the word from the raptor's mouth.) I have  never
once received an answer. Has anybody else had a similar experience? Or
has  word spread, by some means quite beyond me, that I am to be ignored
in  publishing circles?  - Storm Raven 

Yeah, all LW fans are to be ignored to prevent lawsuits for mental
anguish ;) 

Sam Bowker

>--- Norshire@aol.com wrote:
>
>> If a new publisher re-published the Lone Wolf series, how many of us
>would be willing to buy the books from the new publisher in addition to
>those already published?  And who needs which books right now to
>complete their collections?
>
Aside from the fact that I relish any opportunity I can get to obtain
previous editions of LW, I doubt I'd buy the set again, brand new. However,
I probably would consider buying books 25-28 (+?) if the maps were printed
in colour, like the rest of the series. I guess that would be a feature for
those of you who have US editions too.

Tristan Taylor

UK / US Lone Wolf differences
The covers are different
~ The maps in the inside cover are in black in white in the US editions, 
colo(u)r in the UK ones
~ This may just be me, but the UK editions of all gamebooks seem to be better 
made and more durably constructed (like if I tug at the page a little bit in 
the US edition it rips, but it doesn't in the UK edition).
~ Books 21-28 (the New Order series) were never released in the US
~ Books 13-20 (the Grandmaster series) were abridged, sometimes by 50 
sections or more

I THINK that's it, there may be more, which another Kai lord will tell you 
(along with everything I just said) :-)

King Wumpus

Has anyone here ever noticed that sometimes laumspur is drank by the
>  recipient and other times it's simply poured onto the wounds? What is
>  the deal with that?
>  
>  I can't seem to recall any incident like that in the series.  The only
>  thing I can think of is when you press Oede herb on your arm wound in
>  Book 5.  Otherwise, the potion is usually swallowed.  Can you say which
>  books and/or sections where this might have happened (would help jog my
>  memory).

Stephen Farrar

Isn't there the time in LW#4 where you get shot in the leg while running 
toward the Sommlending Army and D'Val rescues you.  You then recieve medical 
attention and the medic ties a leaf of laumspur about the arrow wound?

Says to me that the stuff is somewhat like a sponge to absorb poison etc.  
Probably also prevents infection.  Go figure.  Triple-antibiotic-Laumspur 
cream.
Jason Gaerke

Now I do remember this section.  I guess to answer the original answer,
in most cases, raw Laumspur (i.e. leaves) can be pressed against the
wound to have the same effect as swallowing it, and in battle
situations, that's a lot quicker than forcing someone to swallow a
bunch of dry leaves.

Steve (aka Grey Hawk)

If you take the Doomstone from Ikaya in LW3, and follow a certain
passageway, you get to section 139. Here, if you do not have Laumspur, you
sicken and die from the Doomstone (239). If you do (116) you pour it onto
your broken, sore skin to heal the damage the Doomstone has already caused,
which saves your life, though, as it turns out, not the game (this section
is in the great unwinnable area that starts with 276; the best you can do
after that point is escape alive but failing the mission (61)).

Patrick G. Kalinauskas

Hello everyone.
 

 	We may all feel a little despondent at the demise of the
professionally published gamebook, and equally heartened by amateur efforts
that have started to blossom across the Web. Well, I recently contacted Dave 
Morris, and I have gathered some mightily encouraging news!

	Fighting Fantasy enthusiasts may know Dave Morris as co-author,
with Jamie Thomson, of FF43: The Keep of the Lich-Lord. You may also know
him as co-author of other gamebook series: Blood Sword and Golden Dragon
with Oliver Johnson, Virtual Reality with Mark Smith, and Fabled Lands with
Jamie Thomson. To find out what he's been up to lately, acquaint yourselves
with the Tirikelu RPG rules at:

	http://www.skypoint.com/~slocum/tekumel/rule.html

	It was, however, particularly with the future of the Fabled Lands series
in mind that I wrote to him.

	For those of you that may be unfamiliar with the books: Fabled
Lands was the last of the major gamebook series to see publication. Books
1-6 were published in the UK in 1995/6; the first two books subsequently 
appeared in the US under the series title Quest, and in Germany as 
Sagaland. A total of twelve books were planned, but sales were not quite
sufficient and the series was discontinued after six. This was a *disaster*.

	The Fabled Lands books were not a linear series; unlike Sorcery! or
Lone Wolf you did not complete one and then move on to the next. Each book
offered a multiplicity of possible adventures. You were free to choose
which quests to undertake, and, gradually amassing wealth and power and
advancing in rank, you could roam at will across the world or Fabled Lands,
which the books covered like a vast mosaic. If a certain course of action
offered in one book entailed travel to a distant region of the Fabled Lands,
you would be directed to a paragraph in one of the other books; and with 700
to almost 800 paragraphs per book, and especially with Jamie Thomson's
system of "codewords" allowing you to revisit sites taking account of
earlier actions, the scope for adventure was immense.

	This is why the non-appearance of books 7-12 was such a disaster:
the entire series knitted together as one huge multi-stranded adventure
that the reader was at liberty to shape him/herself, so to publish only
half of it was like publishing a conventional gamebook with half the
paragraphs missing. There are adventures that cannot be completed and places
that cannot be visited, because the books containing the relevant paragraphs
do not exist - especially tragic since the missing books would have covered
the wilder, more exotic regions of the Fabled Lands.

	This series was truly the epic culmination that the gamebook genre 
had long deserved, the ultimate glorious eruption of imaginative
fire in whose embers the printed gamebook might finally and properly have
died, before its phoenix be reborn to even greater splendour on the Web.

	So, I asked Dave whether there is *any* chance at all of books
7-12 being written and published, to which he replied:

	"I'd love to complete the series. It would take some time to get
back into the flow of it, but I still have our (very extensive) notes.
I would think the first step might be to set up books 1-6 as Web pages
and see what kind of interest they generated. This, I think, is a better
format for gamebooks now - we are no longer in the era of the printed
word. If that worked out, and the net publisher could set up a subscription
system, I think Fabled Lands and many other gamebook series could enjoy
quite a renaissance."

	Now, if that is not a thrilling possibility, I don't what is.
I'd love to hear your responses.

Graham Hart

Hello everyone again.

	My earlier message regarding the possibility of a Fabled Lands
revival may have been slightly misconstrued. The emphasis was not intended
to be that the remainder of the series might be published *on the Web*, but
that it might be published *at all*; that the Web is the likeliest medium
was an incidental fact, although it seems to be the one that is being
picked up. Let me frame the central reason for my excitement in a way
perhaps more meaningful for the Fighting Fantasy List: if you heard 
one day that the Fighting Fantasy series (for example) were going to be 
revived online, made available by subscription over the Web, *then* would
you be excited?

	I interpreted Dave's comment, that "we are no longer in the era of
the printed word", to mean that for anyone looking to the long-term future,
publication will in many genres be electronic, not paper. I think that 
this is correct, and I also think that it should be a good thing.

	I wish to underline that I am NOT criticising bibliophiles - I'm one
myself! You might indeed almost call me a bibliomaniac; over the years I 
have amassed a vast library at home, and one day I might even find the time
to read some of it.

	Furthermore, I am NOT arguing that electronic books are "superior"
to paper books. They are different formats, with different strengths and
weaknesses according to your point of view, and I respect that everyone
will have their own preference. In a similar way, I would not argue that
computer games are "better" than role-playing games, or board-games, or
gamebooks. All these various creative forms should be able to co-exist and
be appreciated in their own right. It's my opinion that the
misperception of gamebooks either as mere introductions to group
role-playing or as the poor man's computer game contributed greatly to the
industry's demise.

	A book bought off the shelf is of course (at the moment) a more 
attractive and convenient object than one downloaded from the Web. 
However, my belief that the future standard for publishing will be 
electronic stems from the simple, unsophisticated observation that the
internet is rapidly expanding not only in the number of its users but also
in the number of its *uses*. If an activity previously pursued in the
"real" world can assume a cheaper and more convenient form on the Web, then
it will soon estabish itself there, and may then become the dominant form
of that activity if its audience or the number of its participants grows
sufficiently large.

	We might note that if net publishing proves cheaper than paper
publishing, there may well be greater scope for catering to minority
audiences, such as gamebook fans. This is, at any rate, my hope.

	Just pause for a moment to consider the awesome possibilities:
in principle, a book published on the Web and held in a database will never
go out of print! I dream of the day when every text ever written will be
available for downloading online.

	Of course, I can appreciate the look and feel of a "real" book, and
the aesthetic pleasure of seeing a series of volumes stacked neatly along
my shelves. Of course, I wish that Fabled Lands 7-12 could be published in
the same magnificently packaged form as books 1-6. Ultimately, however, it
is not the cover of a book, nor even its smell, that attracts me, but its
CONTENTS, and if the Web provides a means of delivering those contents, I
will be happy.

	Lastly, to return to the intended point of my original message,
please e-mail me (privately, if this is deemed off-topic) if you think the
proposed Fabled Lands revival is a good idea; I'd like to believe I'm not
the only one who considers this a wonderful prospect (thank you to the
people who have contacted me already).

Graham Hart

Hello Tristan.

	Well, I do my best. When I wrote to Dave Morris it was with the hope
that he might actually have Fabled Lands 7-12 sitting conveniently on a
disc and that he'd be willing simply to print off a few copies by
way of private publication. My expectation, rather, was that he'd merely
say that they hadn't been written and wouldn't be written unless he and Jamie
Thomson could find another publisher and that he didn't think that that was 
likely. So, to have *any* sort of possibility dangled before me that the 
series may yet be completed certainly fired me up. If this works out, I 
might actually have made a difference! There's a lesson to be had there 
somewhere.

	The Fighting Fantasy List is perhaps a little more parochial and a
little less eclectic than I'd hoped, but a few other people did express
an interest to me in seeing the FL series revived. In any case, Dave's
argument was that if Web versions of the books generate as much interest
as the printed versions, they could potentially be very profitable. It
seems as though the general slump in the gamebook industry was only one
reason for the failure of the original books; at least as important, if not
more so, was that they were *underpriced*. Macmillan themselves had hinted 
rather sheepishly to me that that might have been the case. It was evident 
that Dave was aggrieved about it, though, because he was rather more 
emphatic: he wrote that he and Jamie had told Macmillan that,
at oe4.99, the books were being underpriced. At oe5.99, had sales been roughly
the same (which seems quite possible), Macmillan would have made a
comfortable profit on each of them! (which leads my simpleton brain to ask:
why didn't Macmillan just publish the rest of the books with a higher cover
price? obviously I have no business sense).

	Anyway, the latest thought is that Book 1 could be put on the Web
as a "taster", and if that generates a favourable degree of interest, then
Dave and Jamie will try to find a net publisher willing to set up a
subscription service for the rest of the series. This is only a possibility,
however. Nothing is definite as yet. I think probably the most help that you
or I can be is to do our bit to spread the word if/when anything happens.

Graham Hart

Hey guys, I heard you all talking about how if they got reprinted they
should change the numbers etc.
What else should they change? I mean this is a good opportunity here to
correct all the misprints and
give some clearer rules clarifications. Also it would be nice to balance it
up a bit by knocking off
a CS here and beefing up a few enemies. What does everyone think>

Campbell Pentney

At 04:22 PM 19/05/99 EDT, you wrote:
>First and foremost, they should NOT give us the US versions, but rather the 
>UK ones.  Books 1-20 should be labeled as such (with maybe a thing at the 
>bottom like "K5" for Shadow on the Sand, "M2" for Castle Death, and "GM3" for 
>the Darke Crusade, etc.).  New Order should be labeled 1-8, with the blurb or 
>spine stating that it's a continuation of Lone Wolf.  It's about time for 
>some visual changes, too.  Get Gary Chalk or Quinton Hoover (for those of you 
>who don't play Magic, he's an artist.  find an old Regeneration card or 
>something for a look at his stuff) to do the cover art.
>
>I don't think there should be ANY monster/CS changes.  Keep them as true to 
>the original as possible.  Reprint the Omnibus with books 1 and 2.  I can 
>finish book 1 in 10-15 minutes, and I did the first time.  Not a good start.  
>If new players have book 2 with it, they're like "whoa, this is longer than 
>the first one, and it's a lot cooler, too, I'll get all the rest".  If I 
>hadn't gotten books 2 and 3 with my book 1, I wouldn't have touched another 
>one again.
>
>This sounds a little weird, but make a "starter set".  For $10, you get the 
>first 3 books, a pencil, and a 10-sided die, maybe a pad of tear-off stat 
>sheets.  It would introduce fans and would be a good birthday present or even 
>an impulse buy at the mall.
>
>And REPRINT THE MAGNAMUND COMPANION.  This really needs no explanation.
>
>Lastly, have a spare sheet in the front like there were in the first few.  I 
>played with the first copy in book 1, then used the spare to make a few 
>copies.
>

..... As I've probably mentioned quite a few times in the past already, I'd
like to see an updated version of the Magnamund Companion (circa MS 5080+,
rather than MS 5050), that way, all the events that have happened since then
can be chronicled. I'm not suggesting that Lone Wolf should be the big
feature here (although his presence is required), but more like this

MS 5078 (don't quote me on this date!) - Lencia mobilises troops in
preparation for the re-conquest of Northern Lencia (i.e. Darke and the
surrounding lands).

More detail can be given to each of the Darklords, because I don't believe
Joe had actually given many identities to them (Sure, Vashna and Zagarna had
been established, Haakon would have been on the way, but what about the rise
of Gnaag and the others? - as chronicled in the Legends series)

Well, there are probably endless possibilities that could be included in an
updated version, so I guess there will be a few suggestions being made soon.
The bottom line is that I am in favour of such an updated document.

Tristan Taylor

At 06:38 PM 19/05/99 -0700, you wrote:
>And of course that fight in Book 7 (M2 by this new system - good idea btw)
>where you fight the worm-thing (it was a worm right?) which had no CS or EP.
>
>How about, in addition to the books, an official Role-playing game
>conversion, independent of one of those famous Pen and Paper RPG
>corporations. That would either be really cool or really suck.
>
>And of course re-inserting all the stuff that was taken out of the US
>versions (waa!! ;). And a while ago someone suggested making a new M.C.
>that reflects the changes in Magnamund that have happened since MS 5050,
>and includes details on what Grey Star's been up to in Southern Magnamund.
>
>
>Just my 6 lune <grin>,
>Sam aka Star Lion

Oh dear......

I apologise for the previous message (for which you have probably just
read). It seems Sam here had a similar idea to my own. I did not read Sam's
message until I had finished typing my own ideas. My most humble apologies
to anyone who believed that I was plaguarising Sam's work in any way.

Tristan Taylor

Hello All!

For your enjoyment, I have created a Fighting Fantasy quiz.  20 questions.  5
points each.
I'd rank this as average in terms of difficulty.

The best way to take this is not to look at any of the books and respond simply
based on memory.  Of course, for those of
you who "cheat," I have placed a few "trick" questions in this quiz.

Now, when you reply with your e-mails, I will let you know how many questions
you answered correctly.  I won't mention which
questions you answered correctly.  Once someone answers all 20 questions
correctly, I will send the answers to all.

Enjoy.  And keep the faith.

FIGHTING FANTASY QUIZ.  (Each question is worth 5 points.)

1.  What is the name of the spell with which you battle the
dragon in The Warlock of Firetop Mountain?

2.  In Citadel of Chaos, which villians exist when you unscramble the
words sane egg?

3.  In The Forest of Doom, what was the letter that appears on the
hammer and handle?

4.  In Starship Traveller, what is the fewest number of planets you need
to land on to complete the adventure?

5.  In City of Thieves, how many thieves exist in this city?

6.  In Deathtrap Dungeon, what is the name of the competitor whom you
befriend?

7.  In Island of the Lizard King, what is the name of the creature that
attaches itself to the Lizard King's head?

8.  In Scorpion Swamp, what is unusual about the author's name?

9.  In Allansia time, did Caverns of the Snow Witch exist before Forest
of Doom?

10.  In House of Hades (Hell), what is the Earl's last name
(exact spelling is critical--if you have played the book, you know
why)?

11.  In Talisman of Death, what is the name of the dragon?

12.  In Space Assassin, what is your mission?

13.  In Freeway Fighter, what is the fewest number of petrol tanks you
need to acquire?

14.  In Temple of Terror, name the five dragons you must destroy?

15.  In Rings of Kether, what is the name of the currency?

16.  In Seas of Blood, what is the name of the marketplace?

17.  In Appointment with F.E.A.R., what does the acronym F.E.A.R. stand
for?

18.  The term Trial of Champions was first mentioned in which book?

19.  In the Sorcery series, when is the only time that the spell Zed
is used?  What are the consequences of this spell?

20.  Lastly, how many authors have written Fighting Fantasy books?

Robert LaVallie

--- R Pentney <rpentney@pop.ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> Well, I just finished book 4 of greystar. Bit of an anti-climax
really - I had about 40 CS, 80 EP (max) and about 95 WP (max). Anyway -
what happened to greystar?? In the new order series it says that he is
missing so I presumed he wandered off into a shadow gate in book 4.
Anyone?

At the end of Book 4, he was cheered by the gathered crowd as their new
king, so he disappeared some time after that.  I believe Dever said he
was originally going to use Grey Star in the New Order series (an
enemy, perhaps?), but abandoned the idea.  This is pure speculation on
my part, but:

1.  He could be traveling on other planes doing research.

2.  He might have been ambushed by Agarash's agents, much like LW was
at the end of Book 24.

3.  There could have been an accident that caused his disappearance, or
even death.

4.  He might have hated ruling a country, so he and Tanith ran off
somewhere and retired in a distant land.

In short, until Dever tells us what happened to GS, it could be
anything.

Steve (aka Grey Hawk)

I wanna know how he also got 80 EP and 95 WP. My character has beaten all 4
books and still has a puny 12 CS and a few things to boost it up a few points but
not by much, up to a 15. And as far as EP and WP he has 49 and 54, respectively.
And I am pretty damn good with finding all the shit in these books and being able
to make my character pretty powerful. So this is a bunch of bullshit, someone
cheated their ass and just gave their character these stats. How is 80 EP and 95 WP
calculated as being a max anyhow? Since when was there a max to begin with? I want
all this bullshit to be cleared up, I don't like the sound of this kinda crap that
I'm being fed from Lopaka Shaw...

Jason

Ngggahh!! No I said I approximated the CS, I couldn't remember. I did have
the maximum
possible (19+9 for the pods). Will Power was something like this (I can't be
bothered
getting by books to check).
28 + 2 magic talisman
   + 50 moonstone bonus
   + 5 for completing book 2 (I think its 10 but book 3 said it was 5 so go
figure)
   + 5 for completing book 3 
   + 10 bonus for giving laumpsur to dying guy in book 1
= 100 points!
   

By book 4 I had used a lot of will power but the potions of senera I had
made helped cure
this. 

I NEVER cheat, in fact I incorporated rules that made it much harder, for
instance
I didn't allow laumpsur to be used to heal nonphysical damage (i.e. that
damn ghost
thing in book 1)
  Also at times the rules are VERY vague
  What I want to know is how you complete with less than 70 Will Power - now
there's 
cheating! :)

Campbell Pentney

NO idea about his CS or EP, but I know there's a place in GS 3 where you
can make a potion of WP restoration (+5WP if I recall right) with nothing
but an empty vial and Alchemy, it says you may mix as many potions as you
have vials, I recall taking shameless advantage of this by drinking them,
remixing, etc. (hey, it doesn't say you can't :>)

Patrick G. Kalinauskas

If you are drinking a potion of "restoration", wouldn't the +5 WP mean
that you can restore 5 WP that has been used up previously? Just like a
potion of laumsput restores +4 EP? Or would I be interpreting this wrong? It
seems like it was not meant to be used to boost up your Willpower to ungodly
amounts.
    Because a book doesn't say you can't do something, doesn't also mean
that you can. You have to think what would be reasonable and what would seem
realistic and what would seem fair - all at the same time. Why anyone would
want to play with such an unfair advantage is beyond me...if you've played
Lone Wolf you know there are many unclear things in the rules that some
people take advantage of, which is fine...because the gaps were left there -
but if you think realistically about things you can pretty much come up with
a way to rationalize what Joe Dever intended given the heavy AD&D influence
of the books and the heavy RolePlaying aspect. Since when do you go through
a first level AD&D adventure and come out pretty and fully healed because
you found a bajillion potions and magic items and were able to cast the same
spells multiple times, etc.?

Jason Leonard

Why does the question of Grey Stars future crop up so often.

How many times do I have to tell people...

Ian Page later wrote that Grey Star founded a new empire of allied countries and became the wizard emperor.
The Shianti were taken to the etherial plane to become a kind of god.  They took the moon stone with them.
They all lived happily ever after.

Nick Raphael

nick.raphael@artscouncil.org.uk wrote:
> 
> Why does the question of Grey Stars future crop up so often.
> 
> How many times do I have to tell people...
> 
> Ian Page later wrote that Grey Star founded a new empire of allied countries and became the wizard emperor.

He took over Shasarak's Empire.

> The Shianti were taken to the etherial plane to become a kind of god.

Hmmmm. At the time for LW 28 this has not yet happened. This event is
also a bit strange, since the Shianti persuaded Ishir to let them stay
in Magnamund in the first place.

  They took the moon stone with them.
> They all lived happily ever after.
> 

Whoa!!!!

The Moonstone falls into the hands of Naar. LW fetches it back in LW 20,
and it reaches the Shianti (again) in LW 22. However, Acraya, the Leader
of the Shianti vows to deliver the Moonstone into the hands of the
Godess Ishir.

I guess that Magnamund didn't turn out in the way Ian anticipated when
he was asked these questions.

Robert Ekblad

Hi all,

I thought I should keep my peace but I get a bit nauseated hearing how
high all of your CS, EP and WP are.

In GS 4:

I start with the normal CS (10-19) I don't recall any items to increase
CS. There are a few potions of Alether for a temporary boost.

I always start GS with an EP of 30. Why? Because in order for the
Moonstone to work the Jahksa has to kill Grey Star. When you are about
to die, the Moonstone is activated and the Jahksa dies instead. So
basically, I've always assumed that my EP was pretty much zero at that
point. Also what I think the author referred to here is that you can
carry over any PERMANENT bonuses to your EP. In LW there are plenty of
these Leather Jackets, Helmets and so on which I would have carried over
happily. In Grey Star however, I cannot recall have found anything...

I always start with 50 WP. I haven't seen the use to have any more. I do
have a few reserves in the forms of potions and Tamara Seeds and this is
usually quite sufficient.

I don't have any problems completing the adventure with these values
(EP, WP), if my CS is decent. I would advice all of those who say they
play with CS 40, EP 80, WP 90 (or whatever other ridiculously high
value) to play the books again and this time give yourself a bit fewer
bonuses...

I should also point out to all of you that afterwards you are quite
weak.

Agarash the Damned destroys your Wizard's Staff. Means:
No more multiplying damage...
You must fight with a weapon which gives you a -6 CS penalty (at best)
The bonus you gained from enchanting the staff is lost with the staff.

You lose all your remaining WP and EP to close the portal preventing
Agarash from Escaping. (Ok you could still have a few things in your
pack...)

Since the Moonstone falls into the Dark God's hands you lose it as well
(sooner or later). With it goes the ability to cast the Higher Magic
spells ....

Remember: The harder the challenge, the more rewarding it is to succeed.

Robert Ekblad

> PS: What do people think of other gamebook series, comparatively? 
GS, FF, Grailquest, Way Of The Tiger, Blood Sword, Skyfall, Fabled
Lands, others?

The other gamebooks series (at least the ones that I have) are not bad,
but not comparable to the LW saga.  Several of the FF books are good,
but many others were obviously put out to fill space on the bookshelf;
they are poorly written.  Grailquest is an interesting series, with
some surprising challenges, but was aimed more squarely at a children's
audience; I can't read them too often because of that.  Way Of The
Tiger had some real potential; the character was given some real depth
in background, and made a good read.  I was extremely disappointed with
the last book, though; I really hated the cliffhanger that ended the
series, and it amost seemed that the authors weren't interested in
turning out a very good product.  These weren't mentioned, but several
of the D & D gamebook series had a good premise.  In the end, none of
these series quite match to the rich background and descriptive detail
that almost all of the LW books have (excepting some of the abridged US
books and Book 28).

Now the most important question: does GS live up to its companion
series?  I rather liked the series as a whole; they were well written
(with some very surprising twists) and reflect the rich tapestry that
Southern Magnamund provides.  I was a bit letdown by several situations
presented to the reader, such as the final showdowns between GS and the
Kleasea (what's with giving it the wand?) and the GS-double, and the
nature of the Greater magical powers (a little too powerful).  Overall,
I liked Book 2 the best, and Book 3 the least.

Steve (aka Grey Hawk)

There is SO much Laumspur in the Grey Star series, both Potions (which can 
be stored in either the backpack or Herb Pouch) or fresh clumps (which MUST 
be stored in the Herb Pouch to keep it fresh).  There is very little 
alether, however.  I also find that there are many points in the GS series 
when you just get little WP and EP boosts, like sleeping, or those petals 
Tanith puts on your food before you escape.  I recall in Book 4, while you 
are marching with Sado's army, it says you don't need to use magic for a 
long time, so you can restore something like 8 WP and 9 EP.  You also get a 
nice boost after visiting Jnana the Wise in Book 1.
Jason Valasek

>Try to get some Tamara Seeds.
I love those things.  I force myself not to just munch a Tarama seed before 
fighting Shasarak or the Demon Master and blow them away with a x30 blast 
from my staff...

>Combat Tactics against the Kleasa:
The Kleasa is the hardest enemy in the entire world of Magnamund.
Even if you DO survive by losing 1 EP and 2 WP per round, plus the combat 
damage, it sucks away 5 more of each after that, and if your Willpower score 
falls below 0, then the beast has no resistance and sucks out your soul.  If 
your EP falls below 0, then you're dead anyway.
Jason Valasek

> On another note I was always wondering who is Sharasrak?
> 
> In book 2 it was hinted that he was a Shanti or shanti wizard?
> 
> What do you people think? Is he a Human trained in Shanti magery like GS or 
> a SHanti?

I believe somewhere in book 2, it mentions that Shasarak is a renegade
Shianti.  He created a powerful artifact called the Sunstone during his
stay in the kingdom of Taklakot.  Unfortunately, the thing exploded on
him.  This resulted in the destruction of all of Taklakot (except for
Gyanima) and the hideous scarring of Shasarak.  Someone will have to back
me up with page references, since I don't have my Grey Star series with me
here at school. :)

> Funny though, The SHanti didn't think of mentioning this tiny detail to 
> GS..:)

Maybe they didn't want to spoil the surprise. ;)

Mark J. Laird

Here's Paul Mason's original letter to me. Rest assured, I have taken his
suggestions and will be implementing them in the next little while. Don't
forget to keep those reviews and solutions coming. The Warlock review is
coming soon. If they are original they will be published online, so don't
be afraid to add your opinion.

Original Letter follows:
>>
Hi Mark

Just found your site and read your very fair review of The Crimson Tide
(which was 
set in The Isles of the Dawn, which I don't consider to be in Khul...), and
details of 
my other books.

I feel I ought to apologise for the difficulty of Crimson Tide. This is
caused by two 
factors. One was my determination to write the most difficult FF book ever,
so 
that's my fault.

The other was dingbat Marc Gascoigne altering the SKILL of the mudworm from 6 
to 12. He was a total idiot. A mudworm is a big creature that lives in
paddy fields. 
They'd hardly be able to grow rice if there were bloody great giant worms
coming 
out all the time! The idea with the mudworm was that it was supposed to be a 
challenging opponent for a kid, but obviously Marc forgot that you start
the book as 
a kid.

I was surprised at the solution saying that it was possible to complete the
game 
without cheating, because by my estimation the mudworm lay on the critical
path 
(though I do try to build in multiple possibilities, so I may have missed an 
alternative). At least, the critical path to the 'standard' solution. I
seem to recall 
when I wrote it that I also regarded giving up the quest and becoming a
peaceful 
monk in the monastery as a form of success, though I recognise that most FF
fans 
wouldn't see it the same way!

I was very impressed by the solution provided on your site, by the way.

On the subject of Magehunter (which is the book I'm most proud of) I should
point 
out that I learned from my mistake with Crimson Tide, and deliberately
built in 
multiple victory paths, and different levels of victory. The solution you
present is, 

I'm sure, valid, but there are other approaches, including the Riddling
Reaver option, 
which includes the aerial fight 'out of the flying pan into the nest'
illustrated on the 
cover.

You also mistook the location of Magehunter: it takes place in Kallamehr,
the city 
Steve Williams and I created in our first book, The Riddling Reaver. Even
more 
appropriately, it ends where that book began, at the Rangor Tower. I tried to 
convey the different point of view of the protagonist by using Arabian
terms in 
Magehunter where Western terms had been used in RR (so 'Baron' became 
'Sultan').

I'm grateful to Chris Page for his review of Slaves of the Abyss, and glad
he liked 
the cover. It's one of my favourites, and as with most things on FF, we had
to fight 
for it. We won the cover battle, but had to compromise on the ending.
Originally the 
book ended with you sacrificing yourself, remaining in the Abyss in order
to free the 
prisoners. Steve J complained at this, and said that you should jolly well
get lots of 
money and treasure at the end (which perhaps says something about his
philosophy 
of life), so I altered it to provide you with godlike powers. Chris is
right, though, that 
the book is weird. I feel it myself, and would suggest that it's something
about the 
chemistry of me and Steve Williams. If you look at my later books, I think
you'll see 
that they're weird, but a bit more 'of a piece'. Slaves was the product of an 
almighty, but very peaceful, battle between Steve and my ideas of what an
FF book 
could be. You can also see this on Black Vein Prophecy, where my concept of
the 
Isles of the Dawn as very Chinese runs into Steve's peculiar Renaissance
courtier 
sort of vision.

On the other hand, his comment about the 50 foot opponent misses an important 
piece of psychology. If you were fifty feet, and your opponent 6, you would
have 
enormous overconfidence. That was how we felt about it, anyway.

As to the slaves: they're the citizens of Kallamehr, enslaved by Bythos.
The Abyss 
is where Bythos lived. I didn't think we made it _that_ obscure. 'The
Crimson Tide' is 
a far more obscure title: I'm amazed I got away with it!

Anyway, as I said, I enjoyed looking at your site, and it made me regret
that FF died 
before I finished The Wailing World (which would have been FF sixty
something). I 
was really looking forward to writing that, and I think I still have my
50-odd 
paragraphs around somewhere. Still... can't be helped. The same thing
happened to 
the book I planned for the Virtual Reality series.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Mark J. Popp

It seems a lot of people are interested in getting hold of Warlocks from mine and 
Steve, and Marc G's periods of editorship. Shame I didn't keep many copies: I think the 
only one I have with me here is 13, with the Drifting Sands adventure in it.

Best Wishes

Paul Mason

Robert LaVallie wrote on May 24:

>Fighting Fantasy - http://www.cadvision.com/poppmj/fflist.htm
>
>
>
>Just my two cents.  Why are we so intent on putting others down (aka the dingbat
>comment)?  Realize that as a writer, and one accustomed to deadlines, things
>have a tendency to slip through the cracks.  Let's recognize the positives and,
>if there are negatives, they should be stated in a non-negative way.  Remember,
>we're on the same team.

What a bizarre letter.

As it happens, Marc is a mate of mine. I was extremely pissed off that he messed 
up my book, even when I'd pointed out the important relevant details. He's still a 
mate of mine, and I reserve the right to call any mate of mine an idiot if they do 
something idiotic.

I will not be preached to with a load of Californian mumbo-jumbo, by someone I 
don't know the first thing about. Let's learn a little about cultural tolerance here, 
which cuts both ways. I, like most of the FF writers, am British, and part of British 
culture is to call it how you see it, and not construct some artificial 'non-negative' 
paradigm with which to shroud perceived reality. You're welcome to do so yourself, 
but I strongly resent the implication that I am 'so intent on putting others down'. If 
you want to hear praise of Marc, I'll gladly give it, and it'll be all the truer because 
you know that when he's an idiot, I'm prepared to call him an idiot!

Your approach is the sort of flim-flammery that doesn't talk about dead Kosovars 
when it can say 'collateral damage', and conceals the reality of bombs being 
dropped behind nonsense like 'incontinent ordnance'. I'd rather stare life in the face 
and live the truth, rather than a media-created lie.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

<Nathan Ponders>

I've been reading the section on the Dires in Citadel of Chaos, the
Trolltooth wars and Titan. Things don't seem to tie up completely.

Citadel of Chaos states that Balthus came from a "long line of black
sorcerors", whereas Trolltooth says that his grandfather was a white
wizard, and that even Craggen Dire was not as thoroughly ruthless as
his son. Any thoughts?

Of course, my primary interest in this is that the ideas I put forward
in "The Horror of Craggen Rock" are now completely up the spout, but
then- I didn't have Titan and Trolltooth back then. :)

Nathan Page

I think it's worth remembering what is (I believe) mentioned somewhere in 
Titan: that the truth is not absolutely known. What you read in Titan or in 
this gamebook or that, is simply opinion, or the stories told about 
someone, or what is widely known about them. Even what happens in a 
gamebook, or what someone says, is not as reliable a source as it appears 
at first.

What is the 'truth' about Balthus Dire? It's not to be found in any 
published work. It's known only to Balthus Dire himself, and since he's 
fictional (and an evil sorcerer to boot), I don't think there's much chance 
of getting a trustworthy answer out of him.

In other words, what you have written may appear to contradict what's 
written elsewhere, but that doesn't make it 'wrong'.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Hi Tristan

Good to hear from you.

>Firstly, a hearty welcome to the Fighting Fantasy Mailing List. I for one am
>very pleased that there is now a FF authority on the list,

I'm a long way from being an FF authority. I just wrote some of the books. I'm sure 
you've read more FF books than I have!

>I must admit, the storyline for Slaves of the Abyss,
>although initially very confusing, was quite entertaining as the character
>became embroiled in the vast political intrigue in Kallamehr and beyond!

Partly it was complicated because Steve and I had never done an FF before, so we 
were just flinging ideas out at each other like a catherine wheel. 

> I'm
>pretty sure that everybody on the list would be interested in finding out
>your history in the gaming world, such as your early influences, how you
>became involved in FF, your greatest triumph etc. Well, you're probably a
>busy man, so I'll leave you to it.

If any is interested, I might write something. One thing I do find interesting is that 
what I regard as my greatest triumph, the only FF book that I really think is any 
good (Magehunter) is widely regarded as one of the worst FF books. Perhaps these 
two things are related...?

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Graham Hart asked me about the end of FF, and if I could shed any light on 
the mystery.

I'm afraid I can't, really. I can only tell you that writers, or at least this 
writer, were kept in the dark as much as fans. I was waiting for a contract for 
my own book proposal 'The Wailing World' for two years, continually reassured 
by Marc G that the series hadn't been canceled.

The reason for the cancelation was money. There was a perception of 
retailers that the craze was over. I don't think many Puffin staff had ever 
really liked FF very much (they liked the money, of course). They never made 
much effort to promote the series (they made even less effort to promote 
my Robin of Sherwood gamebook series - even in the year in which two Robin 
Hood movies came out!). In a way FF was a victim of its own success. Its 
early sales were so spectacular that when it settled down to levels more 
comparable with 'Arabella and Her Jolly Nice Pony' or whatever all those 
other books Puffin publish are called, it seemed to be doing so badly in 
comparison that it could be axed with relative impunity.

As for exactly when FF ended, I doubt if _anyone_ could answer that 
satisfactorily. One answer might be 1996. Another might be 1998, when they 
finally got around to admitting the truth.

I would like to point out that to the very best of my knowledge Ian 
Livingstone and Steve Jackson were in no way responsible for the 
cancellation of the series. Indeed, I would be very surprised to learn that they 
weren't as disappointed at its demise as the rest of us.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Hi Tristan

>When I first bought Magehunter, boy, was I confused! Even after several
>readings, I still couldn't finish it!

There was I thinking that Magehunter was about ten times easier than Crimson 
Tide!

>I was thrilled to download the
>solution at the Scrolls of Titan website, but not before I <ashamedly> voted
>it as the worst book in the FF survey run by Mark J. Popp. However, I must
>give the book 10/10 for originality, and I enjoyed the preface to the book
>(how to kill a mage....  or words to that extent!).

It certainly doesn't deserve 10/10 for originality, especially with anyone who has 
ever seen the movie Warlock (recommended, byt the way), but I wanted to put a 
twist on things. You can even put metaphysical interpretations on the way that the 
villain 'becomes' you... but I'll leave that to desperate literature students in the next 
millennium.

>I also must congratulate
>you for weaving in a multitude of paths for the reader to take. You probably
>know as well as I do that some of the later FF books are more 'linear' by
>design, and do not allow freedom of movement, as the earlier books (and
>Magehunter too) do. Well, I'll catch you later.

Linearity is my great enemy. I detest it also in computer games. To me, the appeal 
of FF (one which is superseded by rolegames) is the multiple pathways. It 
demonstrates that there are many sides to every story. I probably went over the 
top in Magehunter with all the post-modern self-reflexive elements: the 'labyrinth of 
stories' that you have to pass through in order to catch Mencius in the tower.

But when you think of most books and novels, you are really a victim of the writer. 
The thing that excites me most about FF is the idea that by creating a labyrinth of 
plot possibilities, readers can find all sorts of stories of _their own_ in the book. I'd 
like to see that done in a computer game.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

--- R Pentney <rpentney@pop.ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> Hello all - I was wondering how you guys thought
> deliverance works. Do you
> think it only heals combat wounds
> like the healing skill. What about damage from
> falling down pits and things?
> Finally what about nonphysical
> damage like mental fatigue and tiredness. Although
> it says it heals battle
> wounds the picture of it in book 28
> seems like he is being filled with energy.

I think it is very difficult to represent Endurance as
just one statistic - you really need Health and
Stamina.  Anyway, I used to just use healing / curing
/ deliverance to restore Endurance however it was
lost.  If you went by the names of the disciplines,
you would probably come up with something like this:

Healing: ANY external damage (falls, magical burns,
claws etc.)
Curing: the above + illnesses/poisons
Deliverance: anything

Ryan O'Sullivan

Hey,
	I was reading through Book 7 this evening (Castle Death) and I got
to a point where I was supposed to fight a giant worm like creature in a
maze underneath the castle.  The funny thing is, there is no EP or CS
listed for the thing.  It just says that it's extremely susceptable to
psychic attacks and what not, but it doesn't tell you how much EP or CS it
has.  It is section 233.  Just thought you guys might find that
interesting.

Peace,

Stan - sDk

My book 7 (UK Edition states the worm's combat skill and endurance as being
17. (Section 233)

Regards
Skarn

>>>This all starts on section 34. All other routes lead you to evade the 
>>>worm by Invisibility or use Animal Control to attack and it rears up into 
>>>the mist above which causes the energy shield to break and you can then 
>>>climb out of the maze. Using the Whistle does the same thing.
If you do not climb up the worm and out of the maze here, you must have 
Pathmanship in order to get out of the maze later on. If you do not, you get 
stuck in the maze......You have to get out of the maze by cheating Lord 
Zahda....his maze has no exit! So, I guess it is assumed that you just 
defeat the worm automatically....but I still think that you need the CS and 
EP. I think that Joe got so involved with the rear the worm up idea that he 
over looked the hand-to-hand specifics here.

MYSTIC SAGE (aka: Don Copous)

Correction: You must have Invisibility, Pathmanship or Divination to escape after 
passing up the chance to climb the worm body and exit the maze. Sorry!!!
- Don

Hi all, don't you find similar the story of Shasarak and that of
Saruman? I mean, Shazarak is a renegade Shianti, that are demigods, also
Mayar are demigods, Shazarak was fascinated by the power of evil and
also Saruman, who became crazy looking into the Palantir seeing the eye
of Sauron. Just wondering...
Matteo Udina

>Stephen Farrar <farrarsm@yahoo.com> wrote:
>--- I wrote:
> > PS: What do people think of other gamebook series, comparatively?
>
>The other gamebooks series (at least the ones that I have) are not
>bad, but not comparable to the LW saga.  Several of the FF books are
>good, but many others were obviously put out to fill space on the
>bookshelf; they are poorly written.

Agreed.  FF was very much a lucky dip -- some were real
humdingers, some were just lame.  I think it was generally
hampered by a poor combat system (not that LW can boast...)
There was also a tendency to have books with only one succesful
way through -- any deviation would lead to you losing.  I'm not
sure whether this is preferable to the later LW style, where you
succeed because there's very little deviation allowed: it just
turns into a novel where you roll dice.
The Sorcery! subseries was still bloody good -- longer books,
more choice, a continuing adventure and a very cool magic system.

>Grailquest is an interesting series, with some surprising
>challenges, but was aimed more squarely at a children's audience;
>I can't read them too often because of that.

Grailquest had _humour_, actually funny humour, which wasn't in
any other series that I know of.  Even death wasn't taken very
seriously.  J.H.Brennan must be a very strange person...
Some of the later books petered out (5, 6, 8) but remain good
for amusement (watch out for the Poetic Fiend!  Or the Phantom
Grunweazle (da da da dum).  And don't forget to pack your
Artificial Aardvark...)

>Way Of The Tiger had some real potential; the character was given
>some real depth in background, and made a good read.  I was extremely
>disappointed with the last book, though; I really hated the
>cliffhanger that ended the series, and it amost seemed that the
>authors weren't interested in turning out a very good product.

I suspect the situation with book 6 was much like that with LW 28 --
future in doubt, a sort of revenge against the publisher.
It had a good role-playing background -- this was obviously a world
the authors had created and played in already, as evidenced by
some recurring characters.  It covered a smaller area than LW but
(IMHO) in greater depth.  Again, good development through the
series -- gaining skills much like LW and a storyline that kept
unfolding.  Good combat system, based on guessing the most
intelligent move in the situation.  As a whole, it just felt
nastier than LW -- not a pleasant world to live in.

>Now the most important question: does GS live up to its companion
>series?  I rather liked the series as a whole; they were well written
>(with some very surprising twists) and reflect the rich tapestry that
>Southern Magnamund provides.  I was a bit letdown by several
>situations presented to the reader, such as the final showdowns
>between GS and the Kleasea (what's with giving it the wand?) and the
>GS-double, and the nature of the Greater magical powers (a little too 
> >powerful).  Overall, I liked Book 2 the best, and Book 3 the least.

As far as I can recall (it's been awhile), GS was less episodic
than LW -- it's more one complete story than LW (though books 10-12
are tighter than most).  I love the desperation of GS 1 -- the
first time I played it my character just scraped through the ending
with a final endurance below 5; now that's a well-balanced gamebook.
GS 3 was a bit linear again.  I have yet to read GS 4 but should
be getting it soon :)

--Jon (Storm Dancer)

>The Sorcery! subseries was still bloody good -- longer books,
>more choice, a continuing adventure and a very cool magic system.

I loved the Sorcery! series..Interesting spell casting simple where you had 
to actually memorise the spell codes..

>
>>Grailquest is an interesting series, with some surprising
>>challenges, but was aimed more squarely at a children's audience;
>>I can't read them too often because of that.
>
>Grailquest had _humour_, actually funny humour, which wasn't in
>any other series that I know of.  Even death wasn't taken very
>seriously.  J.H.Brennan must be a very strange person...
>Some of the later books petered out (5, 6, 8) but remain good
>for amusement (watch out for the Poetic Fiend!  Or the Phantom
>Grunweazle (da da da dum).  And don't forget to pack your
>Artificial Aardvark...)

Humour indeed..I enjoyed Book 2 the most..

>
>>Way Of The Tiger had some real potential; the character was given
>>some real depth in background, and made a good read.  I was extremely 
>>disappointed with the last book, though; I really hated >\
>>cliffhanger that ended the series,

I liked Way of the tiger 5..The one where you had a large scale 
battle..Fairly unique ..LW 10 had a smaller scale version..

>I suspect the situation with book 6 was much like that with LW 28 --
>future in doubt, a sort of revenge against the publisher.
>It had a good role-playing background -- this was obviously a world
>the authors had created and played in already, as evidenced by
>some recurring characters.

Like JD's LW series..I believe..

Hmm...NO one mentioned the Blood Sword series..

Personally I feel that this series is the best gamebook series I have ever 
read. Don't get me wrong , I like LW/GS but I feel that LW series is not 
very consistent..certain books were fanastic, others were bad.

Now on why I like Blood Sword

1) A well fleshed out world of Legend. Like the World of the Way of the 
Tiger (ORB) and LW ( Magnamund ), this was a RPG world that was created by a 
DM/GM for adventuring. In fact ,one of the authors of the way of the Tiger 
was a player in the world of Legend I believe
Also, as a added plus a gaming system, Dragon warriors was released using 
the World as a backdrop and Book 6 had lots of details..

2)Great writting and plot. I really enjoyed the writing style of the author 
who managed to blend Humour,legend and excitment into the story. The 
adventure centred arounding getting the Blood Sword and dealing with the 
True Magi..But the plot twists were brillant..Espically Book 4 when it 
became really EPIC in scale..
venturing to Hades  to recover the artifact .meeting Cirle, djinns etc..

3)Good gaming system. It played really different whether you were playing 
the Warrior,Sage,Enchanter and Trickster..Each Class would have a different 
way of dealing with different threats. Espically entertaining were the acts 
by the cunning Trickster..

4)Few Errors. It had few printing errors I would remember..

5)More sections. Each section was far longer (Usually a page) than a typical 
section in LW and some books ran up to 450 sections

6)A definite and satisfying conclusion.

Well given that this is a LW mailing list, I just this should draw a few 
flames..

About GS

>>I was a bit letdown by several
>>situations presented to the reader, such as the final showdowns
>>between GS and the Kleasea (what's with giving it the wand?)

Well I thought it was explained that the wand controls the souleater and by 
giving or destroying it you free the soul eater?

>>and the GS-double,

Sort of like Wolf Bane..But I think WOlf Bane was more interesting ..

>>and the nature of the Greater magical powers (a little too powerful).

Too powerful? Personally I think they were mere extensions of the lesser 
magicks.But some of the Magical powers seemed really powerful on papaer but 
than again you are not really given the option to use them in the 
book..Espically in the final confrontation.(Altough I doubt if they would 
have made a difference..)

Aaron Tay

"Aaron Tay" <aarontay@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Hmm...NO one mentioned the Blood Sword series..
>
>Personally I feel that this series is the best gamebook series I
>have ever read.

Well, I was just replying to the last poster.  But if you insist...

Blood Sword gets my vote as best gamebook series.
It feels the most like a real RPG of any series -- though it's
debatable whether that's the point.

>1) A well fleshed out world of Legend. Like the World of the Way of
>the Tiger (ORB) and LW ( Magnamund ), this was a RPG world that was
>created by a DM/GM for adventuring.

There was evidence of a fairly extensive background, but it was
rarely shoved at the player.

>2)Great writting and plot. I really enjoyed the writing style of the
>author who managed to blend Humour,legend and excitment into the
>story. The adventure centred arounding getting the Blood Sword and
>dealing with the True Magi..But the plot twists were brillant..
>Espically Book 4 when it became really EPIC in scale..
>venturing to Hades  to recover the artifact .meeting Cirle, djinns
>etc..

Yeah, the writing is the best I've come across in gamebooks.
Books 3 (Arabian) and 4 (Hades) incorporated a lot of myths,
generally rearranging them into something special.  And a series
that finished with Judgement Day -- what more could you ask for?

>3)Good gaming system. It played really different whether you were
>playing the Warrior,Sage,Enchanter and Trickster..Each Class would
>have a different way of dealing with different threats. Espically
>entertaining were the acts by the cunning Trickster..

It also gave you the opportunity to play as a party, with
correspondingly lower experience all around.  Experience was gained
from book to book, with opportunities for bonuses along the way.
I liked the idea of mapping out combat situations as well, but I
think they could have included a sense of movement, instead of
allowing players/enemies to just 'jump' from point to point.

>5)More sections. Each section was far longer (Usually a page) than a
>typical section in LW and some books ran up to 450 sections

Didn't one of them go to 500?  Can't recall.
This allowed for a lot more choice (more so in 1-3).  The authors
actually encouraged you to replay and try making different decisions!
The entries themselves also tended to be long -- bargain for your
buck.

>Well given that this is a LW mailing list, I just this should draw a
>few flames..

I feel vaguely embarassed for advertising a series that would be
rather hard to find now.  But I guess even LW is getting that way.
I'll stop raving, and just say that I've replayed them a lot more
times than I've replayed LW.

Any other series people have opinions about?
Fabled Lands -- great concept and execution, sadly uncompleted
Skyfall -- good for mapping
Cretan Chronicles -- Greek myth; very strange
Duelmaster -- matching books, hard to keep 'even' (requires honesty)
Demonspawn -- J.H.Brennan again; high and low points
There are other series I can visualise but can't put a name to.

On a side note, I just read LW 28 and was somewhat disappointed that
the major fight happened midway through the book, and the expected
final fight was a complete letdown.  It felt like there was a lot
of detail to Chai that got cut, a potential unjustifiably limited.

--Jon (Storm Dancer)

Since all the GS talk has gotten me back to playing them again, i've
noticed some errors. Sometimes Shasarak is spelled "Shazarak". I figure
the the latter is the right spelling becasue you don't see the other
-that- often, though it's in book 1 & 2. (Not sure if the UK versions
make this spelling error, doubtful...)
    And in book 1, page 266, i can evade the diving Quoku or fight it.
If i evade it (turn to page 333) i find myself all the way back in the
Darkling Room...? So what is the real page i should turn to? Obviously i
don't dodge the Quoku by running into the Darkling Room... again :). I'm
guessing the page number should have been page 256, that is the page you
turn to if you survive the Quoku fight...*shrug*

    Also side note, my page is now located in Shotia... i have a picture
of it i made, along with a snippit from the Magnamund Companion.

    And one last note, when people were discussing who'd win in a fight,
LW or GS? Did anyone do any mock fights?

--------------------
Shizukana Wolf

I think someone may have mentioned this before, but let's not forget the
Sommerswerd's magic draining ability.  *If* it works again Grey Star's
magic, Grey Star is in big trouble.  Of course, in the later books, some
of the magical weapons owned by Lone Wolf's enemies can overpower the
Sommerswerd's protection (i.e: The Orb of Death, Deathstaff).  If Grey
Star's staff fits in this category, Lone Wolf would probably turn out
extra crispy. :)

Mark

You cannot use the Combat Result Table. The Table is not symmetrical.
The point where you break even lies between the -5/-6 column and the
-7/-8 column.

Who of LW and GS will you place on the ENEMY line in the Table?

If you place Lone Wolf on the Enemy Line (LW will get +6/+7 CS), then
the Combat Ratio will be -11.
Score of 1 and 2: Lone Wolf wins.
Score of 3 and 4: GS loses ENDURANCE and WILLPOWER. LW is unharmed.
Score of 5 - 9, 0: GS loses ENDURANCE and WILLPOWER. LW takes
"multiplied" damage.
2-2-6

If you place Grey Star on the Enemy Line (GS will get +6/+7 CS). If GS
has enchanted his staff for an additional +9 CS then LW wil not fight on
the +11 column before he reaches the rank of Grand Master.
Score of 8, 9 and 0: Lone Wolf wins.
Score of 7 : GS loses ENDURANCE and WILLPOWER. LW is unharmed.
Score of 1 - 6: GS loses ENDURANCE and WILLPOWER. LW takes "multiplied"
damage.
3-1-6

Also if GS wants to kill LW in one blast he may need to do more than 1
point of damage, because Lone Wolf's ENDURANCE is quite high (Unless GS
cheats using the Tamara Seed trick.)

The question about whether or not the Sommerswerd will abosrb the blast
is also an uncertainty. If it does, then Lone Wolf wins the fight as
Mark pointed out.

Robert Ekblad

Lone Wolf in the Grand Master series has at least 26 CS, maximum 35, so
LW would beat the Grey out of GS. Anyway, I think the Sommerswerd
draining thingy only on evil stuff, and since GS is good, I don't think
it would work.
Luke Goamon Dodson

On Sat, 5 Jun 1999, Ryan O'Sullivan wrote:

> The UK edition seems to have 2 visual puzzles in it,
> one on p177 (defusing a bomb) & one on p252 (opening a
> combo lock).  Both puzzles are quite simple and are
> linked up correctly.  Do these correspond to the US
> version?
> 
> --- Norshire@aol.com wrote:
> > I have US edition, and the puzzle in section 219
> > should have the answer of 
> > 63.  Unfortunately, Berkeley sucks.  That section
> > isn't related to 219 at 
> > all!  If someone could tell me the REAL answer to a
> > rather weak "riddle"  I'd 
> > be most grateful.
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > 
> > -Brian

The answer should be 64, but I'm not sure even that makes sense in the US
edition.
US page 219 corresponds with UK 251
US page 220 corresponds with UK 252

-Joel Showman

The "puzzle" to which I refer is that one where you're supposed to find the 
EP score below which you can't use Kai-Surge and how many villages are  
between Holmgard and Ragadorn.  Based on the book, the first number is 6 and 
the second (I think!) is three.  Though, of course, there COULD be a village 
on the map that falls through the crack between the pages.

I finally got frustrated and just went through the section where you "fight" 
with the door to get in.  Since I had checked for the right section and not 
found it, I just skipped the combat and entered the building.

-Brian Norshire

Okay.  I was doing the wrong section.  First of all, the answer to the
villages is 4.  The villages numbered 44, 47, 50, and 51 are all on the
highway (though one or more may be swallowed up in the crease of your book).
And indeed, 64 is the correct answer in the UK edition.  So the proper thing
to do, since some sections have been abridged, is to just start flipping
through earlier sections (i.e., the last 10 sections before 64).  In this
case, the correct section turns out to be 59.

Ben Krefetz

Does anyone have any idea when the splitting of the lands occurred? It was
some time after the Orc Wars of about 600OT., but several centuries befor
the founding of Royal Lendle in 1410OT.

So does 700-1000OT. sound about right?
Can we narrow it down any further?

Yours
Daniel Williams

I'm currently about halfway through book 18, Dawn of the Dragons, and
after a recent event I experienced, I decided to write about some of the
items that I lost that I'd grown fond of. In this book, as I was
travelling though Duadon, a Nadziranim must have discovered my identity
and called out the guards. After a resistance on my part, they captured
me and took my money, my backpack and my weapons. I did not erase them
from my action chart because I felt confident that I would find them
again, just like in books 5 and 7. Much to my surprise and frustration,
I left Duadon with a horse and replacement items. My money and backpack
I could have cared less about (the only backpack item I lost that ever
meant anything was some Oede herb I found in Vassagonia- ripped from my
back as I escaped from Kazin-Oud), but my weapons were precious. I had a
Black Steel Sword that I had taken from Parsion the "priest" way back in
book 2! The other weapon was none other than the Silver Oak Bow of
Duadon! Yes, yes, I found it ironic that I should leave it in Duadon..
  The first time I lost a valuable special item that I can remember was
the Dagger of Vashna in book 17. Helshezag would have been destroyed
also, but I had it in safe keeping at the time.
                             -----
I also just finished War of the Wizards and I wonder if anyone can tell
me; where can I find some Philomenel Pods? (I'm not sure of the
spelling, but I'm sure you know what I mean.)

                  -- Smelly Giak

--- Carl Reyes <reyes@bu.edu> wrote:

> So what do you guys think?  As a Kai, does LW get to keep the
Sommerswerd just cause it would be in bad taste to let it get melted
into coin?  (no, no, let me guess, the Sommerswerd is immune to such
base treatment?)

I've always gone on the assumption that Joe Dever put the Sommerswerd
in the Special Items section to lessen the chances of losing it.  I've
also thought that the Sommerswerd probably weight as much as your
normal steel weapon, though it is certainly much more powerful than
most weapons in Magnamund.  It seems that there were more opportunities
to lose it in earlier books than later; I guess the legend of LW and
the Sommerswerd was so appealing that we can't bear the thought of
losing it.  You can make up any explaination as to why enemies like the
Giaks don't take the Sommerswerd for themselves; they are repulsed by
the purity of the weapon and refuse to touch it, they don't "notice"
it, etc.

I guess it depends on your opinion of how to catagorize the
Sommerswerd.  Personally, I put in the SI section, along with the
Dagger of Vashna, but most other weapons are put in the Weapons slot,
including the Silver Bow of Duadon (I could never figure that one out;
when you win the weapon in book 5, you're instructed to list it as a
Weapon, but later, it's called a Special Item.  When did that change
occur?--I never saw that).

Steve Farrar (aka Grey Hawk)

> I've always gone on the assumption that Joe Dever put the Sommerswerd
> in the Special Items section to lessen the chances of losing it.  I've
> also thought that the Sommerswerd probably weight as much as your
> normal steel weapon, though it is certainly much more powerful than
> most weapons in Magnamund.  It seems that there were more opportunities
> to lose it in earlier books than later; I guess the legend of LW and
> the Sommerswerd was so appealing that we can't bear the thought of
> losing it.  You can make up any explaination as to why enemies like the
> Giaks don't take the Sommerswerd for themselves; they are repulsed by
> the purity of the weapon and refuse to touch it, they don't "notice"
> it, etc.

Purity is definitely a factor.  I recall the episode in Castle Death where
the dwarf takes the Sommerswerd from you, holds it up to show his master,
and loses half of his fingers.  Also, many of the evil enemies are
uncomfortable in the presence of the divine sword.  Even Naar himself is
scared of it.

> I guess it depends on your opinion of how to catagorize the
> Sommerswerd.  Personally, I put in the SI section, along with the
> Dagger of Vashna, but most other weapons are put in the Weapons slot,
> including the Silver Bow of Duadon (I could never figure that one out;
> when you win the weapon in book 5, you're instructed to list it as a
> Weapon, but later, it's called a Special Item.  When did that change
> occur?--I never saw that).

I also put the Sommerswerd in the Special Items section.  I have the same
question about the bow.  I have no idea when it changed.  Sometime between
book 6 and book 8, I think, but my memory is a bit rusty. :)

Mark J. Laird

Personally I'm a rule fanatic. According to me the Sommerswerd is a special
item (section number 67 in Fire over Water hints at that at least. In later
books the Sommerswerd is refered to as Special item). I haven't thought of
the Sommerswerd as a weapon you just can't loose. That's ridiculous! It can
be lost or dropped like any ordinary special item ( in reality you just
don't drop it. The Sommerswerd is half the joy of the Lone Wolf books.
Personally I love those sections that end "If you have the Sommerswerd see
section XXX"). But if I loose the Sommerswerd due to some reason, I just
play the book over again. 

Something that bothers me is the items that are refered to as "a special
item carried in the backpack." According to my interpretations of the rules
that's impossible! These kind of "items" are found in many different books,
but I think they're most frequent in the Grey Star gamebooks. I think it
looks silly to make a note of an item at two places in the action chart! So
I never do it. But why has Joe written some passages like that?
/Henrik known as Smiling Fox

"Knowledge is power
And power I like"
		-Heinrik Eriksson

> Something that bothers me is the items that are refered to as "a special
> item carried in the backpack." According to my interpretations of the rules
> that's impossible! These kind of "items" are found in many different books,
> but I think they're most frequent in the Grey Star gamebooks. I think it
> looks silly to make a note of an item at two places in the action chart! So
> I never do it. But why has Joe written some passages like that?

This is a very interesting point you bring up, Henrik.  Some of the
special items could be so small that they don't take up space in your
backpack (hence why they don't count on the backpack item list).  But
there are a lot of other items that don't immediately fit this explanation
(the Tome of Darkness in LW #20 is one example that comes to mind
immediately).  I don't know.  What do the rest of you have to say?

Mark J. Laird

As I was saying, you may recall that once Lone Wolf escapes from Castle
Death, he gets his backpack ripped off, and thus loses all contents from his
backpack. Yet, he is still allowed to retain his special items, even though
the majority of them would have been in his backpack. My memory is a bit
strapped at the moment, but some notables are the Kalte Firesphere and er...
<INSERT OTHER SPECIAL ITEMS HERE> I'm sure you know what I'm on about.

Tristan Taylor

> >Does anyone out there ever understand this stuff? I think we need an
> >English-to-Luke translation dictionary!......
> >MYSTIC SAGE (aka: Don Copous)
> 
> To the best of my comprehension, it's "I'm bored."

Yes, It means he had a great time and is back now so he can discuss things on
the list.  On another note more true to Lone Wolf I noticed something about book
22.  In the English version there is a section where you can buy stuff (I think
it is 156 or 165 or some section like that) but there are no prices listed.  In
the French version there are prices listed.  Are these the correct prices?

Sean-Robert Shaw

Dydh da,

Kernewek ov vy, my a dryg yn Bosvenna!

Well, that is I used to live in Bodmin, but sadly no jobs were in the offing
so I had to move to Bedford. Nice to hear about the old country, though-
especially as I won't be back there for another two months.

Dan
Western Owl

Hi 
On the topic of Star Wars and Fighting Fantasy wouldn't the Phantom Menace make a great Fighting Fantasy book?

As an obvious choice of character you would be a jedi knight.Possibly Qui-Gon Jin? The only tricky bit with this is that being around Obi Wan Kenobi for the whole 
book would be a little restrictive.

There are many scenes which would be really exciting like on Tatooine, the diplomacy visit to the Trade Federation ship, before the Jedi council and of course fighting Darth Maul. 

Due to the whole jedi character and how they handle situations it would be very well suited to a gamebook.
The fact that they use their brains to solve lots of problems rather than just using their light sabers would help to blend the story together and also  create       interesting gameplay.

Personally one of the things I like about Fighting Fantasy is the setting and most of the books set in Allansia have a really great atmosphere and setting.
That would be the advantage of making a book in the Star Wars universe its a really great place for adventure and the atmosphere in each scene is really good.

Writing the book from Anakin's perspective would also be very interesting.Perhaps his story over the next two movies could be made into a Scorcery like Saga.Learning to use various aspects of the Force.The fact that he is a kid will make it really different.

Hope no one minds this merger between the Phantom Menace 
and Fighting Fantasy and I apologize to anybody to anyone who doesn't like Star Wars.

So long,
John.

Well... actually there *were* a couple of Star Wars tie-in gamebooks
(not Fighting Fantasy, of course, but gamebooks nevertheless) published just
a few years ago. They appeared originally as separate books, and then
together in a single fat omnibus volume, which is the edition that I've
got. Unfortunately I don't have it with me right now, and I don't recall
the titles off-hand, but I'm sure that somebody out there will know.

Graham Hart

hi 
regarding the star wars gamebooks.the second one was called bounty
hunter and had boba fett on cover,they were published by boxtree.i dont
have the first one but recall they were quite good.
neil taylor

Dear List:

>Second:
>
>Michael Wong wrote on Jun 15:
>
>>                        Which brings me to what I really want to ask all fellow FF 
>readers. When you are playing Fighting Fantasy books, does it really bother you to 
>play a cardboard "good" character?  Is it a problem for you when your character is 
>"evil"?
>
>To me the 'morality' of FF was one of the points I found most unsettling, and 
>therefore the one that I most enjoyed dealing with. I didn't find it unsettling in the 
>conventional sense, but all the same Michael is right to point out that basically FF 
>books are predicated on the idea that you play a murderer and a thief.

I was bothered about the "morality" of FF and D&D rather early on actually.  I remembered for playing Creatures of Havoc for the first time and killing the poor helpless dwarf (turned out he was a criminal) and eating the equally hapless hobbit.  That was the first time I really asked myself why I am doing this, the excuse that I am a beast and can't control my actions made me think.  I was also bothered by Scorpion Swamp when you can help the evil wizard and massacre the Masters/Mistresses of X (?) in the swamp for their amulet or trading innocent slaves in Seas of Blood just to get some more GPs so I can win the bet with fellow scumbag pirate Abdul (I think that's his name) earlier on but the part about the player being a beast and not responsible for actions really struck me.  There really is no "good" or "evil"!  You are just trying to finish the quest (or module in D&D) and it doesn't matter how many people are kill or robbed as long as you get to the precious ref #400.  (for most FF books anyway).

>Although it's really just a lot of wacky nonsense, the Riddling Reaver, the first FF 
>book I was involved in, was based on exactly the issues that Michael brought up. 
>The 'villain' of that book was a character that I always regarded as a hero (and he 

I remembered reading the Riddling Reaver and disliking it because of the "wackiness".  It is still not one of my favourites but I see your point.

>popped up in far more 'good' roles in my later books, just to make the point). His 

I remembered seeing him again in "Slaves of the Abyss" and wanting to kill him because I thought he was a villain!  I think he also appeared later in Magehunter and I was no longer sure whether he was really a hero or villain, in fact, I was just puzzled and slightly annoyed when he appeared because I was not sure what to expect from him.  Good job in finally making a REAL character in FF, in my opinion the Riddling Reaver is more interesting than Yaztromo ever will be.

>goal was to destroy an artifact that represented the artificial constructs of Good 
>and Evil that existed in Titan. In other words, the RR wanted to introduce genuine 
>morality - people thinking for themseves. But we cast him as the villain because, to 
>Steve and I, it seemed that what we were proposing opposed the essence of FF. All 

Hmm... I don't seem to remember that, I will try to dig up the book again and refresh my memory of him.

>the same, I mentioned to Robin Waterfield, who edited the books in those days, that 
>I regarded the RR as the good guy. He was horrified, commenting that the Reaver 
>murdered people in the course of the adventure. 'Yes,' I replied, 'but how many 
>people do the "heroes" murder?'

Excellent response.

>>                        Actually when you come about it, you are playing the role of an 
>assassin  most of the time in FF anyway.  I find it very hypocritical to claim your 
>actions in a typical FF book can be classified as "good" in the traditional sense.
>
>Absolutely true. I probably went off the rails increasingly with my later books by 
>exploring this whole idea. The Crimson Tide was explicitly concerned with the idea of 
>morality: is revenge justified? Does a heinous crime justify murder in retribution?

I remembered Crimson Tide, it was one of the few FF adventures (Starship Traveller and creature of Havoc being the other 2) that I never finished and I spent many hours rereading it to figure out how to finish it "properly".  Eventually I cheated by reading through every single reference and found the "correct" way to deal with the Serpent guy.  I liked the idea that I can choose to stay in the monastery as an ending, too bad it sounded like you've failed if that route is chosen.  I think the revenge is justified because in a way you are trying to stop further bloodshed and killings by a bunch of remorseless bandits.  I am a little disappointed that the evil deeds done by the bandit leader is blamed on the mythical evil mask, there has to be a better way of dealing with this villain.  Why couldn't he have repented or became stricken with sickness (so it would be cowardly/dishonorable to kill him)?

I liked that you named the monastary "Bao Chao" (meaning revenge in Chinese).  Do you speak mandarin yourself?  I am surprised by the number of Chinese words found in your books.

>And the same idea, of a moral choice, drove Black Vein Prophecy, where we set 
>you up as the child of the Dark Lord, a role that, I'm sure Michael would agree, 
>perfectly suits the average FF hero. If we could have, I would have liked to have  
>alternative endings to that book - one in which you choose the Dark Side, and end 
>up as the new Dark Lord, and the other as it was. It would be up to the reader to 
>decide which they preferred.

The option is actually provided in the book, if you choose to kill Maior instead of sparing it, you become the dark Lord instead of going through the dream sequence.  Do you mean actually choosing voluntarily to be the Dark Lord after coming back from the childhood sequence and foiling the plans of the father?  I agree that would be a preferred ending instead of the run of the mill goody/goody ending.  As it stands, it is still an above average (in my taste) FF book.

It's neat that you named the special powers in Chinese, is it intentional that you choose those funny names though?  Note that:-

Biantai :- the morphing power, chinese words means change shape/behavior literally, but more often means perversion (in a sexual sense).

Baopo :- the fireball power, chinese words means explosion and destruction literally.

Tiaohe :- Means sexually harass or tease in a lewd sexual manner.

forgot the fourth power.

>Unfortunately, Steve J and the Croc insisted on 'goody-goody' endings.

That is trully unfortunate.  By the way, who is the "Croc"?  Is that a nickname of Ian Livingstone's?

>But this leads on to a related subject which you might have some views about: the 
>violence.
>
>It was obvious to me, and I'm sure every other FF writer, that the violence 
>constituted one of FF's main sources of appeal. Yet I remember taking a phone call 

Violence used to be appealing to me as a kid, afterall, defeating a dragon is quite a heroic feat!  It no longer plays as important a role in games for me though, I am very tired of the endless hack and slash and appreciate FF books or other games that keeps the number of killings to a minimum.  I find books like Crimson Tide. Black Vein Prophecy and Midnight Rogue very refreshing because a lot of fighting can be avoided and aren't necessary.

>from the Puffin boss when I was at GW, in which she was desperate to talk to the 
>Croc, because there was a media fuss about the gore in the books. The scene in 
>(was it?) 'Talisman of Death' when a trident sticks out of your chest was much 
>quoted. (Ironically, that scene was not written by Jamie Thomson, as everyone 
>thought, given Jamie's reputation, but by his co-author Mark Smith, as a parody of 
>Jamie's style!).

Not sure what you meant by Jamie's reputation because I am not too familiar with the individual authors of the FF book besides Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone.  Who was the guy that wrote the books with Cassandra the swordswoman?  Did he also write a non-FF series featuring those characters in his world?

>What do you reckon? Were the books too violent? Or was the violence an integral 
>part of the appeal? And if so, what are the moral implications of that?

I don't think the books are too violent for me, but I can see how it would bother other people as these books were intended for children afterall.  With the type of violence presented in the books, I am surprised that we don't have more sexual stuff though.  Afterall, don't they always go hand in hand?  I think the violence in the books are essential because people are violent by nature, we enjoy watching over the top action films with mondo death tolls and creative death scenes.  This is probably the carnivorous instinct inside us that makes us crave blood, we ARE predators by nature, that doesn't make us "good" or "bad". sex and violence has nothing to do with good or bad in my not so humble opinion.

>Best wishes
>
>Paul Mason
>Outlaws/imazine http://www.tcp-ip.or.jp/~panurge

Thanks for writing such gems as 

Michael

With some liberal snippage -

Michael Wong wrote:

> Fighting Fantasy Mailing List - http://www.fightingfantasy.com
>
> Dear List:
>
> >Second:
> >
> >Michael Wong wrote on Jun 15:
> >
> >>                        Which brings me to what I really want to ask all fellow FF
> >readers. When you are playing Fighting Fantasy books, does it really bother you to
> >play a cardboard "good" character?  Is it a problem for you when your character is
> >"evil"?
> >
> >To me the 'morality' of FF was one of the points I found most unsettling, and
> >therefore the one that I most enjoyed dealing with. I didn't find it unsettling in the
> >conventional sense, but all the same Michael is right to point out that basically FF
> >books are predicated on the idea that you play a murderer and a thief.
>

I tend to save thoughts on morality for situations other than playing a fantasy game out of a paperback book. It was noticeable, though, that when you were out-and-out evil, like serving the bad wizard in Scorpion Swamp, or killing Feior in Black Vein Prophecy, the book consigned you to the depths of the pit. Otherwise, demons could be decapitated and Red-Eyes run through, no problem. Which makes sense. If you actually lived in a wolf-eat-dog fantasy world, you'd have to pack a sword and be prepared to defend yourself. Most of the time, the Fighting Fantasy murders are committed in self-defence - either you kill the Dark Elf or he'll be trailing a human scalp back to his fungus-encrusted domum. The only murders I have any problems with are when your opponent really doesn't want to fight you but does so anyway because he/she/it/them is being forced to, like that girl in Beneath Nightmare Castle.

> Not sure what you meant by Jamie's reputation because I am not too familiar with the individual authors of the FF book besides Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone.  Who was the guy that wrote the books with Cassandra the swordswoman?  Did he also write a non-FF series featuring those characters in his world?
>

These books were the Way of the Tiger series and were written by Mark Smith and jamie Thomson.

> >What do you reckon? Were the books too violent? Or was the violence an integral
> >part of the appeal? And if so, what are the moral implications of that?

If you hunt, that's violence against animals. If you pull up weeds, that's violence against plants. If a burglar breaks in and you retaliate with a well-placed Cobra Strike Punch, that's violence against human beings, compounded if he shoots you for it and then ends up in Old Sparky fifteen years later. No offence meant, but think of Fighting Fantasy without creatures to fight - no slavering Hell Demons, no tail-lashing Arcadians. The books might as well be written by Danielle Steel. Any time someone is killed, unless you resort to sedative poisons, it's going to be messy and violent. War is hell, no getting past it. And no one who picks up a book with a picture of a Bloodbeast on the cover is going to think they can get past the monster by giving it peanuts.

Moral implications? I don't think this wonderfully entertaining series is going to inspire anyone to kill anyone else, or desensitize us to violence. I've read the books since I was 14 and I still lift my feet when I walk so as not to step on ants, even though they make me think of Xoroa Warriors.
Marian D. Perera

Message text written by "Fighting Fantasy"
> (Coincidentally, I presume no one's 
interested in any of the later issues of Warlock, up to issue 60 or so? I
was 
gobsmacked to discover that it was still being published in Japan when I
got here in 
1991).
<

Are you saying that Warlock magazine was published up to issue #60?!?!

Michael Taylor

Yes. A Japanese publisher published the magazine in translation, and when GW 
folded it, they carried on.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Christopher Edwards wrote on Jun 16:

>Fighting Fantasy - http://www.cadvision.com/poppmj/fflist.htm
>
>Paul Mason wrote on June 15
>> What do you reckon? Were the books too violent? Or was the violence an integral 
>> part of the appeal? And if so, what are the moral implications of that?
>
>Thought I'd just add this as a little sidenote.
>
>Have you noticed how the morality of the FF books altered as the series progressed,
>along with the increasing sophistication. The first books were very conventional,
>where heroes were heroes, evil wizards had no redeeming features, and orcs were
>better off dead.

I may be wrong here, but I'd also trace this to changes in the people writing the books. 
After all, their creators had only the flimsiest grasp of the possibilities of role-playing (as 
an activity, rather than as a business), and this made it possible for them to focus on the 
bare essentials, in the same way that D&D had done in the mid 70s. To a large extent, 
the same was true of other writers of the earlier books. But as the series progressed, 
other writers were drafted in, often those with extensive experience at role-playing, and 
this affected the way they thought about opponents and their relationship with the plot. 
That's my theory, anyway.

>However, as it got into the 40s, the character of the bad guys changed. Less
>evil wizards and mutants, more demons being helped by traitors and blackguards.
>
>Traitors was the main change - normal humans siding against the heroes, in it
>for the money. Suddenly, you had to watch your back a lot more. (Compare this
>to Warlock, where if it was elven, dwarven or human you had a chat, and anything
>else you generally killed it.)
>
>Coupled with the (quite frankly outstanding) Black Vein Prophecy/Crimson Tide
>books, it made the adventures more interesting. (Although wandering around a
>rainy Old World got a bit boring after a while.)

Thanks for the kind words. I think it was necessary for FF to develop beyond the 
dungeon crawl in order to it to continue. On the other hand this probably sowed the 
seeds of its eventual demise. I suspect many writers tried to play around with things 
simply because they would have been bored witless reproducing a traditional dungeon 
crawl. But as soon as the series started to have complexities, there was less room for 
consensus, and the capacity for sales to the unthinking declined. I mean, look at a book 
like Moonrunner. To my way of thinking, it's leagues ahead of the dungeon crawling of 
Warlock. On the other hand, if it had been first, I don't think it would have stood a nun's 
chance in hell of starting off the phenomenon that was FF.

On reflection, I find it curious that the book I was planning when FF went down the pan 
was a 'dungeon crawl', though Chris's comment about the increasing preponderance of 
traitors is right on the ball. The Wailing World was going to be full of 'em. And ethnic 
cleansing too...

It relates to a role-playing issue that I have recently been exploring in my zine. What FF, 
like D&D, gave us that seemed special, was the feeling that we (the reader/player) were 
in control. Then along came the auteurs, the control freaks, and started herding us along 
their 'artistically' created pathways. It may have led to marginally more 'artistic' work, 
but it trampled on the primary appeal of the activity.

I think I came back to the dungeon crawl because I recognised both the 
primordial/psychological appeal of an exploration of an Underworld (the ones that had 
appeared in my books were rather too self-consciously psychological, I fear) and the way 
it represents a pure expression of the choice that drives FF.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Hi:

On Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:44:15   Michael Taylor wrote:
>Fighting Fantasy Mailing List - http://www.fightingfantasy.com
>
>Message text written by "Fighting Fantasy"
>>
>> However, I will say that I, personally,
>> regardless of my own code of ethics, have no qualms about merrily
>> hacking and slashing my way through the people and monsters whom I meet
>in
>> gamebook adventures because... er... they are not actually... real. 
>> They are just characters in a book, that's all.<

That's true, we all know that these gamebook adventures are works of fiction, just like most movies we see are also fictional (even the biopics of famous people are filled with creative licenses by the director).  The point I am trying to make is the merrily hacking and slashing.  What about a hypothetical gamebook which REQUIRES you to "merrily" rape and mutilate a woman, "happily" torture a little kid to get the elusive information/item, "gleefully" gouge the eyes out of a baby to make that special potion to solve the book?  Will you enjoy such a book?  All I am stating is that I am bothered by the mindless killing which seems so prevalent in various RPGs and games.  The only way to game experience/advance in levels is to kill kill kill, it gets boring after a while.  Doing the occasional hack and slash may be fun, it just gets very tiresome when that seems to be the only thing.

I remembered a person stating in a previous email that he was bothered by being forced to killed the girl in "beneath the Nightmare Castle", the book was pretty badly written but it didn't bother me to much when I killed the girl.  I guess people have different threshold for what types of killing they can handle.

>I think this quote was perfectly said! Anyone who cannot tell fantasy from
>reality is insane. At which point they have a lot more serious problems
>than what books they are reading (or what TV shows or movies they watch for
>that matter).
>
>If RPGs and TV and Movies and books made people insane, the world would be
>overrun of insane people.....well okay, maybe that wasn't a very good
>analogy..... ;D

LOL, the world IS overrun with insane people.  In fact, not only that, insane people RUN the world if you don't already know.  8)

Note I am not saying that RPG & TV & Movies make people do crazy things, I am just saying that players/viewers who enjoy these types of entertainment are fooling themselves if they really think the main characters/heroes are really doing worthy/heroic deeds when in fact they're just murderers/thieves.  Not that murdering and thieving is really that bad... it's just that one can get sick of it after a while and be bothered by it after indulging in too much.  Lack of creativity in a lot of the later FF series makes playing through them more of a chore (Daggers of Darkness, Stealer of Souls, Portal of Evil, Fangs of Fury, Master of Chaos, Keep of the Lich-Lord, Tower of Destruction, Legend of Zagor etc.... note that most of the bad FF books are title XX of YY!!) and exercise in killing things than an enjoyable exploration.  Most of the better FF books (Citadel of Chaos, Magehunter, Moonrunner, Spectral Stalker, Black Vein Prophecy, Crimson Tide, Moonrunner, House of Hell) don't require as much fighting as those mentioned above.  Creature of Havoc and Legend of the Shadow Warriors are notable exceptions, a lot of fighting was required but they were great books.

I am not going to respond about what you said about fantasy vs. fiction, insanity vs normalcy as it opens up a whole other can of worms and endless philosophical debate which is totally beyond the scope of FF discussion.  8P  Note that Spectral Stalkers is one of my favourite FF books because of the sheer scope of the universe we get to visit.  The whole book plays like an insane dream.

>Michael

Michael Wong

- actually, I believe that FF books 30+ showed a lot of creativity, not too
mention originality. I quite enjoyed them, and some of my favourite books in
the series can be found in the above list! Actually, what really annoyed me
(only because I'm lazy!) was that from Tower of Destruction (#46) onwards,
each Fighting Fantasy book had those puzzles in it, where you must convert a
person's name or an object's name into numerical form (A=1, B=2.... Z=26).
You see, as I got older, I didn't have enough time to actually "play" each
adventure (using dice and the adventure sheet), and would prefer to just
read each adventure, taking it for granted that I won every fight,
successful when Testing my Luck etc. Of course, it was understandle that
trying to solve these puzzles would require time that I did not have, so
once I worked out a solution, I'd commit it to memory, so I wouldn't have to
work it out in the future! Well, I'm now making a determined effort to play
the adventures as originally intended, it's only a matter of time!

Tristan Taylor

Hi there,

  I'm just curious since I don't know of any other women on the list, if
you were at all bothered by the sort of generic male hero that you more or
less had to identify with in the books.  Given the popularity of such
things like Xena--Warrior Princess, women who are taking up kick boxing
etc. I get the impression there are plent of women who would relate to
violence in at least a fantasy setting, and perhaps some FF books geared
towards a woman protagonist would have helped reach this demographic. What
do you think?
   Also, as regards the whole violence issue, for me when I speak of
"fantasy violence" I'm referring to a venue which is clearly not the world
we live in, which makes the violence unreal and not traumatic in my eyes.
So, things like sci-fi movies, sword & sorcery (star wars, conan etc.)
don't make me feel at all warped as it were, though a film like "Pulp
Fiction" where you have a lot of crude violence that goes on in real life
does bother me--and here I'm talking about rape/abuse/murder.  So, I think
when you're talking about slicing and dicing some undead monster versus
raping someone or torturing a child (which I think someone gave as
examples earlier) the undead monster is for me taking place in an entirely
different area of my imagination and emotions--it is far removed and the
contemplation of the monster is thrilling as a creative thought in itself,
and fighting it becomes a kind of archetypal struggle, not a brutal
imitation of newspaper articles you read where torture, rape, murder
happen all the time--and remain horrible and evil.  There are some
exceptions here, for instance you definitely could have what I would
consider 'real life' violence in a sci fi/fantasy film and it might have a
similarly unpleasant impact to a gang movie, but the main diff. is when
you have fantastical creatures involved, the depiction of the actual
suffering that occurs etc.

well enough said, ahoy,

Jason Harris

Yes, I think the "imagination" is the main appeal for me as
well--definitely.  I found the identification with a position of heroism
and self reliance helped (at least in my imagination :) ) develop a
positive and individualistic outlook in life, though I won't say the books
were just some sort of feel-good therapy or confidence building program,
but there was an element there of a dynamic influence on my identity, yep.
Lonewolf too, at least in the early days.

best,

Jason Harris

You're kidding. I'm the only woman on this list? Well, in high school, they used to say "that girl ain't right"....

I have noticed, though, that most FF books go out of their way to be gender-nonspecific, addressing you as "stranger" or "friend". House of Hell, my
first FF book, did this all the time. Some, such as Demons of the Deep, where you have to kiss a fish princess, leaned more towards the male side of
the spectrum. I can't imagine myself kissing a fish princess, or any princess for that matter, so books that don't automatically give you a male role
are higher on my list.

Xena is not a favorite of mine, mostly because of those skimpy little costumes she and her sidekick wear. They are the Deanna Trois of fantasy as far
as clothes are concerned.

What kind of FF book would appeal to women, or perhaps feature a female protagonist more specifically? First, you'd need more choices than (1) sneak
past it (2) fight it. A female protagonist would tend to think first and fight later. She also wouldn't be entranced by pretty vampiresses or witches,
though she might have to dissuade the occasional admirer. That's all for now, folks.

>    Also, as regards the whole violence issue, for me when I speak of
> "fantasy violence" I'm referring to a venue which is clearly not the world
> we live in, which makes the violence unreal and not traumatic in my eyes.
> So, things like sci-fi movies, sword & sorcery (star wars, conan etc.)
> don't make me feel at all warped as it were, though a film like "Pulp
> Fiction" where you have a lot of crude violence that goes on in real life
> does bother me--and here I'm talking about rape/abuse/murder.  So, I think
> when you're talking about slicing and dicing some undead monster versus
> raping someone or torturing a child (which I think someone gave as
> examples earlier) the undead monster is for me taking place in an entirely
> different area of my imagination and emotions--it is far removed and the
> contemplation of the monster is thrilling as a creative thought in itself,
> and fighting it becomes a kind of archetypal struggle, not a brutal
> imitation of newspaper articles you read where torture, rape, murder
> happen all the time--and remain horrible and evil.  There are some
> exceptions here, for instance you definitely could have what I would
> consider 'real life' violence in a sci fi/fantasy film and it might have a
> similarly unpleasant impact to a gang movie, but the main diff. is when
> you have fantastical creatures involved, the depiction of the actual
> suffering that occurs etc.
>
> well enough said, ahoy,
>
> Jason

I live a sheltered life and have not watched Pulp Fiction, Natural Born Killers or the Basketball Diaries. Well, maybe it's not so sheltered, but I
haven't played Mortal Kombat or any computer game more bloodthirsty than Civilization. So I'm no expert on depictions of suffering. FF doesn't really
dwell on pain, suffering, blood or wounds, and is fairly tame compared to all the examples I've just listed.

Qapla!

Marian

And a slight topic change...

Puffin had a very short series of Adventure Gamebooks which, I believe,
were aimed at girls- the "Starlight Adventures". Were these a welcome
addition to the gamebooks library, or were they simply not worth bothering
with?

Nathan Page

I've never read these, but if they were specifically aimed at girls, I
wouldn't want to touch them. The "aimed at girls" part suggests that they
wouldn't be as gritty as hard-core FF. Any time there's a male-female
distinction, females usually end up being classified as gentle, timid,
irrational, or worse. As long as the book doesn't assume I'm a man (Legend of
Zagor is the worst offender in this regard) or ask me to kiss princesses, I'm
happy with it.

Marian D. Perera

Oooh... you'd hate the Starlight adventures then. :)

THe one which I have (and never read, but then, I haven't read many of my
FF books yet either) casts "you" as a young female detective who has to try
and solve some murder or other. It's based in the "real world" (whatever
that is), and there's no mention of Titan or similar in it. It's not a
fighting fantasy book as such, but has the zigzag logo at the top. Oh, yes,
and it's pink.

Nathan Page

Branching out possibly slightly beyond gender, but does anyone object to
being given a specific character in game books? I picked up a Hero Quest
game book the other day where you have to play the barbarian from the board
game. It doesn't bother me because I love Hero Quest (although the Barbarian
was never my favourite character) but would it bother any of you?

Jam Norman

For the purposes of plot in some books, you have to start with a specific
character, eg. Maior in Black Vein Prophecy. That's fine. I was just mad because
I ordered Legend of Zagor from Canada and when it finally got here, I was given
the option of playing a male wizard, a male warrior, a male barbarian or a male
dwarf. Don't they have women in Amarillia?

Marian D. Perera

Actually, the Zagor Chronicles do incorporate a female wizard into the main
characters. Her brother was actually the original Sallazar, King Kraal's
sorcerer who played an integral part in the generation of the Casket of
Souls.  At the moment, the female Wizard's name escapes me (haven't read the
series for ages - but feel free anyone to answer this), but she accompanies
Brxus, Anvar and Stubble on their quest. I was quite surprised that she was
replaced by another wizard named Sallazar (not the original one), who had
nothing to do with the story. My only guess is that Ian Livingstone
(incorrectly) looked at Fighting Fantasy as a male dominated area, and thus
didn't incorporate this female wizard into the adventure. I would have
preferred it however (as it would have been more authentically correct) if
the female wizard hadn't been replaced.

Tristan Taylor

The female character in the Zagor Chronicles who was replaced by the male
wizard in FF54 Legend of Zagor was called Jallarial.

Daniel Williams

Market research, so I was told, revealed that FF readers _did not_ like being given a 
specific character in game books (bad news for me, as I did this fairly often). I 
wanted to deal with this in The Wailing World by giving the reader the choice of 4 
archetypes, but even that, I suspect, would have been frowned on by the market 
research-worshipping Puffin powers that be.

Thinking back, I remember not having much problem with being given a specific 
character in Lone Wolf (though I didn't much care for the LW book I read). But 
then, I'm a role-player, so I suppose that's to be expected. What I missed, I suppose, 
is that most people's fantasies involve them being 'themselves'. They are reluctant 
to step outside what they regard as their own identity.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Marian D. Perera wrote on Jun 18:

>  For the purposes of plot in some books, you have to start with a specific
>character, eg. Maior in Black Vein Prophecy.

And you know we tied ourselves in knots trying to make it possible for Maior to be 
non-gender specific! (check out paragraph 158, for example, when the peasant says 
'It's them again' rather than 'It's him again'). I know, we failed...

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

I just checked my copy of BVP, and in para 158, the peasant calls you "sir"; also,
Bezenvial calls you "son". In para 29, you're specifically referred to as "him", so I
didn't realize you were working to make Maior non-gender-specific.  Besides, in
Crimson Tide, he's a man, and there's a suggestion of romance with the ambassadress.

Marian D. Perera

At 09:14 PM 6/17/99 -0600, you wrote:
>nothing to do with the story. My only guess is that Ian Livingstone
>(incorrectly) looked at Fighting Fantasy as a male dominated area, and thus

I would hardly say Mr. Livingstone's inference was incorrect! Let me point
out some quick stats. On my site I host the FF Survey where various
demographics are reported. 122 people have filled out the survey, of which
6 are female. That's 0.049% Not exactly a large market! On this list, we
only have one female member to my knowledge, out of 56 subscribers. This
gives you a general idea where most of the revenue from FF books came from.
I'm not saying adding more female leads in the books would be a bad thing,
but knowing something about marketing, it would probably not be wise to
ignore 99% of the market to pick up a few extra female readers.

Also, as Marian indicated, gamebooks geared towards the female gender were
not very successful. This is indicative of a larger problem: Women simply
aren't as interested in Sci-Fi/Fantasy as men are. Since traditional
gamebooks haven't picked up many readers, and gamebooks designed for female
readers aren't successful, what strategy would be useful in appealing to
this market? Something to consider.

Just think, if the typical reader was given a choice between four female
leads in Legend of Zagor, you are risking alienating over 99% of your
readership. I can see how Mr. Livingstone may have thought male heroes were
a safe bet!

Mark J. Popp

Yes. I think in later paragraphs we just gave up (and we had the idea that 'sir' could 
just about pass as non-gender-specific). Added to which, Steve was less fussy 
about stuff like that than I was.

By Crimson Tide, I had resigned myself to a male Maior, and he had to be male to 
have the suggestion of romance with Keiko. (Must admit, I felt the FF books in 
general had been rather sterile in excluding all romance so rigorously. I suppose you 
could say that the target audience was socially inadequate pubescent boys, who 
hate romance, but I didn't feel that I should be limited by the 'target market', and 
working on Warlock had made me aware that there was a small but significant 
audience of housewives also reading.).

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Mark J. Popp wrote on Jun 18:

>I would hardly say Mr. Livingstone's inference was incorrect! Let me point
>out some quick stats. On my site I host the FF Survey where various
>demographics are reported. 122 people have filled out the survey, of which
>6 are female. That's 0.049% Not exactly a large market! On this list, we
>only have one female member to my knowledge, out of 56 subscribers. This
>gives you a general idea where most of the revenue from FF books came from.

You're generally right. I mentioned in another post the phenomenon of the 
housewife readers (the majority of the usable adventures that we printed in 
Warlock came from this source), but clearly the overwhelming majority were male.

>Also, as Marian indicated, gamebooks geared towards the female gender were
>not very successful. This is indicative of a larger problem: Women simply
>aren't as interested in Sci-Fi/Fantasy as men are.

Not entirely true, at least as far as fantasy is concerned. The DragonLance 
novels have a very large proportion of female readers.

> Since traditional
>gamebooks haven't picked up many readers, and gamebooks designed for female
>readers aren't successful, what strategy would be useful in appealing to
>this market? Something to consider.

I can think of a number of possible strategies, but like the similar strategies for 
the computer games market, they're unlikely to be put into action.

>Just think, if the typical reader was given a choice between four female
>leads in Legend of Zagor, you are risking alienating over 99% of your
>readership. I can see how Mr. Livingstone may have thought male heroes were
>a safe bet!

But no-one was suggesting four female leads: they were suggesting one out of 
four. And there's a fairly significant proportion of male readers who would have 
chosen female characters, I'm certain (when I play Soul Kalibur, the video game, I 
usually choose one of the female characters, and not only because she uses a 
_jian_, the same weapon I use myself).

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

At 05:45 PM 6/18/1999 +0900, you wrote:
>Not entirely true, at least as far as fantasy is concerned. The DragonLance 
>novels have a very large proportion of female readers.

Very interesting. That's encouraging, but in general I think the genre is
in the male domain. Of course, I'm sure we'd all prefer it to be the other
way around. :)

>But no-one was suggesting four female leads: they were suggesting one out of 
>four. And there's a fairly significant proportion of male readers who
would have 
>chosen female characters, I'm certain (when I play Soul Kalibur, the video
game, I 

I used the four female leads as a "flip-side" example. Even if one female
lead represented (1/4) or 25% of readers' choices, then that would be
over-representing female readership by about 24.5% You'd need about 200
different leads, with one of them being female, in order for the numbers to
be feasible. That doesn't include male readers choosing female characters,
as you quite rightly pointed out. But I still think that the female lead in
your example would be chosen least often.

Mark J. Popp

I have a couple of the Starlight books at home, entombed, probably
forever, beneath a pile of other books that I think I'd rather read first.
Such as the Way of the Tiger gamebooks. Or the Sonic the Hedgehog gamebooks.
Or the Lemmings gamebooks. Or anything, really.

	I remember no specific plot details from having once flicked through
them. They are, however, most definitely nothing to do with Fighting
Fantasy. For one thing, I noticed no fighting in them. Or any fantasy.

	The covers are mushy, pastille-hued composite paintings portraying
elements of the decadent life-style that the publishers of these books
would like to assume that the female mind spends most of its time dreaming 
about: executive jets flying to exotic island locations, the world of 
high fashion, hunky male rock-stars, ballet-dancing, horses, etc.

<snip>

	Marian mused:

> Seriously, though, the reason I read and play gamebooks is to explore another
> world. If all the other "Starlight Adventures" were reality-based
>(more or less) there'd be no point in reading them. And pink? It would 
> clash horribly with my two shelves of lime-green-spined books...

	Actually, I'm sure the spines (at least of the copies that I have)
are sky blue, which would sit quite happily beside lime green, I'd have
thought. :)

Graham Hart

A gamebook about the catwalk or the ballet?

Tchaikovsky's "Swan Lake" is playing. You are on stage! Do you pirouette (go 
to 12) or do jetes (go to 29)? Whichever you choose, be sure to test your 
Skill. If you fail the Skill test, there will be no bouquet of roses for you 
at the end.

OK, maybe I've exaggerated, but this kind of gamebook wouldn't be much fun.

Marian

* You are at the front of a Marilyn Manson concert, surrounded by screaming 
maniacs. Do you dodge security and jump up onto stage (turn to 35) or throw 
yourself violently at the biggest nearest bouncer, screaming "I am Chadda 
Darkmane!" (in which case turn to 47)? Alternatively, you could slink back 
to the drinks tent, picking as many pockets as possible (turn to 64).

- I don't know but there could be some amusement from a modern lifestyle 
seen through FF sunglasses. Hostel of Doom is pretty funny!

cheers

Andy Wright

Does anyone else think that the illustrations in Magehunter are total rubbish? Why was there so much switching between illustrators in Fighting Fantasy books? Compare with Return to Firetop Mountain and Legend of Zagor and you'll see what I mean. Some 'artists' are quite obviously not up to it. 
 

I think the illustrations play an important role in FF books, and poor examples just don't inspire me I'm afraid. 
 

And on the discussion of 'morality' in FF books, the most heartless example I know of is in Citadel of Chaos, when you run those three 'children' (they're sort of children) through, who don't put up any resistance whatsoever. I cringed as I did that. 
 

 
Ta.
 

Richard Stanton

G'day all,

Got a chance to leaf through Titan last weekend (something I haven't done
for a long time), and looked at the various maps of Allansia, Khul and the
Old World. We all know that the vast majority of the adventures occur in the
Western part of Allansia (bounded to the north by the Ice Finger mountains,
to the West by Oyster Bay, to the East by the Plain of Bronze, and the the
South by the Desert of Skulls). This area of Titan has been explored quite
frequently, and thus, there isn't a lot we don't know about it. I appreciate
that in the later Fighting Fantasy adventures (40-59), more exotic locations
were detailed. Getting to the point, I noticed how detailed the Old World
appeared at this time (considering that only the Tasks of Tantalon and the
Sorcery series had detailed this area at the time). I'm somewhat
disappointed that later Fighting Fantasy books didn't explore the
(apparently) notorious City of Mazes, and the Demonkeep Outpost in Brice /
Ruddlestone - amongst other locations. Looking at Khul, you can see the
pockets of civilisation in the east (mostly detailed in Scorpion Swamp and
Beneath Nightmare Castle), and in the west (Masks of Mayhem). South - Tak
and the Inland Sea (Seas of Blood) and Hachiman (Sword of the Samurai).
Later, Master of Chaos visited Ashkyos and the evil-infested ruins of
Kabesh. However, Djirretta, Ximoran and even Shakaru, the supposed city of
beggars, would have been good to visit. Yet even in Allansia, the dwarven
citadel at Fangthane, and the freezing glaciers of Frostholm would have been
worthy of an adventure or two. Any comments or other locations anyone?

Tristan Taylor

I've always wondered if Games Workshop's "Old World" setting for Warhammer
Fantasy Roleplaying and Fantasy Battle was based on this? There are a lot
of similarities and Games Workshop was founded by Ian Livingstone.....

Any ideas or confirmation?

Thanks!
Michael Taylor

No connection. Warhammer was done by the Nottingham branch of Workshop, at a 
time when Livingstone was barely involved with the company at all. And to be 
honest I think there are far more differences than similarities!

Personally, I think the WH Old World is more interesting, and that's not just because 
a friend of mine runs the company that sells the RPG!

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Hello Tristan.

	Actually, that wasn't the message I was thinking of, so perhaps
you didn't write the one I had in mind... doesn't matter though. Somebody
commented about not having time to go through the full FF combat
procedure, and with the morality debate looking to become rather passionate
and heavy, I was going to try to lighten it up with an utterly
inconsequential smart-arse quip about the morality of "cheating" in 
gamebooks... but that thread seems to be on the wane now anyway, so I 
don't think I'll bother.

Graham Hart
gh115@hermes.cam.ac.uk

PS: It's a small world. A while ago I went on a day-trip (book-buying
expedition) to London. I disembarked from the coach at Victoria 
Coach Station, and left by a side exit that opened onto a small, narrow,
utterly inconspicuous street called Ecclestone Place. Hmm, Ecclestone
Place... I didn't think anything of it right then, but after I'd advanced 
only about fifty yards I suddenly found myself standing outside a shiny
pair of doors that opened upon a plush foyer, with a bronze plaque beside 
them proclaiming the headquarters of MacMillan Publishers! Of course, 25 
Ecclestone Place... I've written that address on envelopes a few times. I
might have stormed in and given them a lecture on how once you start
publishing a gamebook series you must then publish ALL of it. But I didn't.

G. Hart

regarding locations i remember attempting to start a FF campaign based 
around some sort of theocracy in the Bird Islands, south of the Old World. 
It was inspired by the job Black Vein Prophecy and Crimson Tide did at 
expanding the Isles of the Dawn, which otherwise look pretty mundane in 
Titan. The other setting i wanted to have a bash at was that weirdo city 
state way out on the other side of Allansia, Shabak or Bakulan or something. 
(yes my copy of Titan is elsewhere)

also, it was interesting the comment re Star Wars as a gamebook because i'm 
pretty sure one of the early warlocks (5?) had a desert adventure ripped 
straight from the underbelly of Tatooine plus liberal amounts of Raiders of 
the Lost Ark thrown in for good measure. There was even a bar scene, ala Mos 
Eisley Canteena, where some mercenary bursts in and says "Now you die Snurd 
Hideflayer!" or words to that effect. Very Han Solo vs Greedo stuff.Somehow 
it won the first Warlock  solo adventure competitiom so plagiarism obviously 
pays off.

cheers

andy wright

Hello Fellow FF Members:

I was going to add some info to the FAQ about Paul Mason, so I figured I
may as well post it to the list so we can all receive the response.

Paul, I may have missed it, but I was wondering what you were currently
working on? You mentioned you moved to Japan in 1991, under what
circumstances did you make the move and has it panned out how you expected
it to? I understand you were still working on Fighting Fantasy "on the
side" with your upcoming Wailing World, in addition to your newsletter.
Mention any other info you want to add to the FAQ when you have some free
time.

Thanks.

Mark J. Popp

In a way, my FF books are autobiographical. Black Vein Prophecy explains how I 
met Keiko. I then came to Japan and got married, while undergoing the sort of 
culture shock Magehunter describes. I can't say Japan has panned out how I 
expected it to, as I only expected to stay a couple of years!

'Currently working on' suggests writing projects, rather than my current job as a 
university lecturer and freelance editor/translator.

That would be my novel, based on the real historical character Judge Bao, and set 
in China in the Song Dynasty. And perhaps my Outlaws of the Water Margin 
Chinese RPG, which is currently more or less freeware.

Neither, I'm afraid, have very much connected with FF.

I have considered occasionally the idea of publishing gamebooks produced using 
Acrobat, which would cut out the hassle of dealing with Puffin and their archaic 
production methods (they wouldn't accept electronic texts for books, if you can 
believe that: they insisted on retyping the lot!), and maybe even make the activity 
financially viable. Unfortunately, as Robert LaVallie will let you know, since all 
non-Microsoft software is crap, using Acrobat would alienate the entire market 
worth considering. Hey, maybe I will give it a go after all!

>I understand you were still working on Fighting Fantasy "on the
>side" with your upcoming Wailing World, in addition to your newsletter.

No. I wrote just under 100 paragraphs of Wailing World and got sick of being fobbed 
off by promises that 'FF hadn't finished, honestly', so I stopped. Good thing too. 
While it might be nice to continue it, I'd also like to continue the Red Dragon Pass 
book I started for Virtual reality. And both of those projects take a back  seat to 
my novel, RPG, and other RPG projects that have been offered me. Not to mention 
my fanzine.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Message text written by "The Fighting Fantasy Mailing List"
>Not to mention 
my fanzine.<

Well actually - I was hoping you'd mention it! What's it about? 

Michael Taylor

Well actually, since it's off topic according to this mailing list, I was just allowing the 
coy little mention in my .sig to suffice. Especially as the zine is free and available 
online. But nothing but the most cursory mention of FF in it, I'm afraid, so it's not a 
fit subject for this mailing list and I won't mention it again.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Here is a good topic for discussion:

With the way that magic is portrayed in the early Legends series, how could
a fighter (without a Sommerswerd) ever hope to take on a magic-user?
Specifically, if a magic user could cause people's heads to evaporate or
people to turn paper-thin with the blink of an eye, how could any non-magic
user ever have a chance of winning a combat?

I realize that Alyss was helping Banedon, but the guildmaster seemed to have
almost unlimited powers himself.

Thanks
Jason Gaerke

Magic use, just like any art or skill, takes a very large amount of
focus and training. I've never read the legends series, but I'd imagine
an initiate of the Brotherhood of the Crystal Star wouldn't even venture
outside of Toran until he had a good lightning hand spell down pat. And
after a few years, he has probably amassed a great deal of power. It's
the same in D&D. If a wizard manages to live to 6th level, he can toss a
fireball, capable of taking out a whole group of goblins in a round,
something even a 12th level fighter can't do, really.  Smart wizards
should go to an academy and get to at least 3rd level before they try to
go adventuring.
By the way, can anybody tell me how to find the philomenal pods in Grey Star?
Cool Sandwich

(spoiler, but oft requested - maybe this should be a FAQ?)

GS4:

from start:

1 -> <any> -> 326 -> 50 -> <162 if you want> -> 239 -> 172 -> 222 -> 110 ->
36 -> 234 -> 241 -> 4.

You need to have either Alchemy or Theurgy to access the link from 234 to
241. It does not matter which choice you make in the very beginning, or
whether you choose to use Prophecy at 50. There are other paths, this is
merely the shortest. Just be sure to get to a place where you have a choice
of 14 or 36, or of 297 and 234, and in either case choose the latter.

Patrick G. Kalinauskas

What would you *really* like to see in future Lone Wolf books that might
be published (I hope so)? I'd like to see a meeting between LW and GS.
They are the two great heroes of Northern and Southern Magnamund,
respectively of course, so it's unlikely that they wouldn't have heard
of one another. Maybe this could solve the mysterious disappearance of
GS in 22 (I'm sure this has said before. if so, apologies to the person
who did:).     
-- 
29-32 Hawk - Luke Goaman-Dodson

This is my first post, so...
Hello all.
Anyway, I was just browsing through the Penguin/Puffin website, and started 
to wonder just what it would take to get them to start-up the FF series 
again.  Obviously, they would have to believe that there existed a market 
sizable enough to make it worth their while, but exactly how large might that 
be?  Is there anything we as a group could do to give them reason to consider 
it? Presumably, not at this point in time, but....Anyone have any thoughts?  
At the very least, I find it enjoyable to engage in such reverie.  To those 
who find such daydreaming melancholic, I apologize and ask that you look the 
other way.
Thanks,
Matt Konig

The difficulty with this problem is that it raises political considerations. Having 
cancelled the series, Puffin would not like to be forced to admit that they may have 
been mistaken. Thus even the presence of a potential readership large enough to 
justify the return of the series on strictly financial grounds would be insufficient. 
You would have to convince not just Puffin, but also retailers, and Ian and 
Steve, that a market existed comparable to FF at its peak. FF at its peak was a 
pretty large market.

I think the most likely possibility would be a well-timed nostalgia kick. The pitch 
would be to aim at parents who remembered FF books from when they were young, 
to attempt to persuade them to encourage their own kids to read. You would have 
to push the _reading_ aspects (I always used to feel, about writing FF books, that in 
some ways the books were more important than literature, because there were 
people reading them who otherwise wouldn't read).

None of this would be easy. Another possibility would be to bypass Puffin and go 
directly for electronic publication of FF books. But this would be tricky. FF books 
paid moderately well, but still not enough to make them a living for anyone (with the 
possible exception of Ian & Steve, if they wished to live that cheaply). The amount 
of effort that went into writing a book is not something that all that many people 
would care to do if they weren't being paid. For me, I might consider putting such 
effort into a rolegame, but there is a good reason I stopped work on The Wailing 
World when I did. I'm still not sure that even electronic publishing would be 
financially viable.

Interesting to speculate, though.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Doesn't this depend on the care that is taken with the book, and the level
of originality? The two books I've done didn't take all that much effort. :)

Then again, they aren't quite (!) up to the standard of the published
books. <grin>

Nathan Page

If you say so! I thought "Forest of Dreams" was excellent, and it gave me
some inspiration for a shapechanger character (I call it a protean) in one
of my own stories.

"Horror of Craggen Rock" gave me bad memories of "Citadel of Chaos", where
I was killed several times. I'd prefer a gamebook/story about Zharradan
Marr, or, as my brother calls him, "Mirror, mirror, on the wall..."

Marian D. Perera

Hi. :-)

I have three short questions about The Crimson Tide:

What's happening on the cover? I don't recognise any of the characters.

Was the fish acquired from the Yuemo supposed to do something?

Being accompanied by the other children is signified by the word 'art' -
why?

philip.mills

Because the book referred to the desire for revenge as a "crimson tide".
Crimson Tide is also an Alabaman  football team, so when I first heard this
title, I wondered...

Marian D. Perera

Why was the book called 'The Crimson Tide'? :-)

philip.mills

Maybe Steely Dan are fans of Alabama, as I first heard it in a Steely Dan song. A 
rather inferior group called Deacon Blue also took their name from the song. And 
there was some bloody movie that came out after the book too.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Yeah, that's right. When the book first came out in Australia, I noticed
that the movie of the same name (but with a totally different plot and
context) also came out.

Tristan Taylor

I guess this is more of a question for Paul Mason to answer, but I for one
am curious as to know how much does an author make on witing a Fighting
Fantasy book? I remember reading an interview of Joe Dever (author of Lone
Wolf etc) suggesting that Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone wanted Joe to
publish his Lone Wolf series under the Fighting Fantasy logo, but only
offered him 1% (yes, one percent) of the royalties! Of course he rejected
such a measly figure, and took his business elsewhere, effectively removing
all ties he had with Games Workshop.

Tristan Taylor

Well, I realise that it is different for an established author, but if a
publishing house offered me 1% to publish one of my gamebooks, I' jump at
the chance.

In fact, if they offered me nothing for the book, I'd still jump at the
chance.

:)

Nathan Page

This reminds me of a chat I had with Dave Morris last time I was back in Britain, when 
we were looking at one of these newfangled kiddie's books called 'Guess How Much I 
Love You', and Dave was saying that the next thing would be that someone would do a 
kid's book called 'Guess How Much I Earn'.

Still, fair's fair. FF writers were on 6% royalties (Steve and Croc took 4%). Writers 
would also get a 2000 pound advance. So, you can work out, based on the sales of a 
book (30,000 would be _very_ good), that one a year wouldn't exactly keep one in 
caviare. Export royalty rates were lower, but having said that, I probably made more 
from Gallimard's French editions of the last two books I wrote than I did from their UK 
editions, so pitiful were sales in the home market (how many shops in the UK even 
_stocked_ Magehunter?).

I've heard that story about Joe Dever elsewhere and I can well believe it. Apparently, 
Joe Dever has been working on a computer RPG for Gremlin Interactive that me and 
a friend also pitched for. I wonder if it will be any good?

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

>Well, I realise that it is different for an established author, but if a
>publishing house offered me 1% to publish one of my gamebooks, I' jump at
>the chance.
>
>In fact, if they offered me nothing for the book, I'd still jump at the
>chance.

This might sound unreasonable, but that would be a very good way of making 
yourself unpopular. Not because 'established authors' are greedy, but because 
by allowing yourself to be exploited, you encourage people like the Croc to 
continue exploiting others. Steve W and I weren't 'established authors' when we 
wrote Riddling Reaver, but we got 6%, same as all the other FF writers. Even 
that was subject to skimming from Steve and Ian, but it was fair enough.

If your work is good enough for a publishing house to make several thousand 
pounds profit on, then it's good enough for you to receive several hundred, at 
least.

Coincidentally, I still occasionally consider the idea of publishing gamebooks 
myself electronically, depending on whether there is a market. One interesting 
thing to consider is that since the copyright notice in the front of FF books is 
utterly indefensible (you can't copyright a concept), it would be possible to 
publish FF-style books, _so long as no copyright material was used in them_. The 
rules could be used, but would have to be totally rewritten. And only those 
areas of Titan which could be claimed by other people could be used (ironically, 
this might lead to the Isles of the Dawn (renamed) and Kallamehr becoming 
popular locations!) On balance, though, I'd probably rather adopt a slightly 
different system (I favour the Virtual Reality system myself), and different 
locations.

If I did start publishing gamebooks, then I'd be offering considerably more than 
the 1% you are prepared to take. Unlike some people, my idea of human worth 
does not consist of how much treasure plundered from others I can pile up...

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

>Of course he rejected
such a measly figure, and took his business elsewhere, effectively removing
all ties he had with Games Workshop.

Tristan Taylor<

I've heard that in Roleplaying games, if you can get 05% for a book you
wrote, your doing well!

Michael Taylor

Hi all-

I think this is my first post to the list but I for one would definitely be in favor of Paul starting his own "Fighting Fantasy" series electronically. I think many of us would also support his efforts. It also seems as if that is going to be the wave of the future as far as publishing goes. Many publishers are going to short-run, special order prints and many more are considering publishing books on "disk" or via internet to be read on those new electronic book readers (that happen to run about $500-$600 apiece!) However, I think that enough of us on this list would support Paul's efforts should he decide to do something like that....

Jason Hughitt

In quite a lot of businesses, if you can get 5% for a book, you're doing well.

But role-playing publishing doesn't really deserve to be dignified with the term of 
'business' and certainly not 'industry'. If anyone's interested, I can repost an 
interesting article on this subject by an executive of Steve Jackson Games.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Paul wrote:

> Coincidentally, I still occasionally consider the idea of publishing
> gamebooks myself electronically, depending on whether there is a market.

	I think that the existence of the FF List, and the various fan-sites
dotted around the internet, testifies to the fact that there *is* a market,
the only unknown being how large it really is, and whether the numbers
would therefore be sufficient to justify commercial gamebook publication,
either in print or electronically. I have often wished that since the
mainstream publishers seem to have jettisoned the gamebook, some more
specialist publisher might recognise that there *is* still a demand, if only 
perhaps a small one, from a potentially loyal and dedicated readership that
would be willing to buy fairly expensive books produced on small print runs.
But perhaps this merely demonstrates my ignorance of how the world of
publishing really operates.

> One interesting thing to consider is that since the copyright notice in 
> the front of FF books is utterly indefensible (you can't copyright a
> concept), it would be possible to publish FF-style books, _so long as no
> copyright material was used in them_. The rules could be used, but would
> have to be totally rewritten. And only those areas of Titan which could
> be claimed by other people could be used (ironically, this might lead to
> the Isles of the Dawn (renamed) and Kallamehr becoming popular locations!)

	I have wondered what that "concept copyright" notice really signified.
Surely not the general concept of the gamebook itself! or it would
have been breached many times over by now. I guessed it must simply refer
to the standard FF "rules". If I remember correctly (somebody who actually
has access to their books might check this) the "concept copyright" line
only appeared in those books written by authors other than SJ and IL, in
which cases the real authors were granted "text copyright". In SJ's
and IL's own books only plain "copyright" was noted.

> On balance, though, I'd probably rather adopt a slightly 
> different system (I favour the Virtual Reality system myself), and different 
> locations.

	Any gamebook, employing any system, published by any means, would 
be better than none at all, and in my small way I'll eagerly encourage
anyone, such as Paul here, who might consider attempting to revive the
genre (although I've been mightily heartened as well by the noble,
unpaid efforts of those such as Nathan). Those who have been on this
list for a while will remember that I quoted Dave Morris musing that the
Fabled Lands gamebook series might also, just possibly, be resurrected
in this way. So, let's all keep our fingers crossed (except while we're
typing, obviously).

Graham Hart

Sorry it's a bit long. It rings very true, though. When I started at Games 
Workshop (in 1985) I was paid less than 5000 pounds per year! I lasted six 
months...

Written by Scott Haring, one of Steve Jackson Games' senior bods:

The Future in the Game Business

     No, not the future of the game business. The future in the game
business. My future, specifically. And though this analysis will be filtered 
through my own situation and experiences, I think it applies to a lot of 
people currently working in the adventure game industry, and those who 
thing they may want to.

     The industry has its share of "old-timers" (and after 16 years, I
probably qualify), but not as many as you'd think, and certainly not as many 
as there are in other businesses. Why? Because game companies are small, 
and -- relatively speaking -- don't make a whole lot of money. Even the
undisputed "big boys" of our industry are drops in the bucket compared to 
mass-market game and hobby companies, like Hasbro or Monogram-Revell 
or Mattel. And if you widen the definition of what we do to include all sorts 
of publishing, comparing adventure game companies with Random House and 
Del Rey and Tor, the comparison becomes even more unfavorable. Then 
consider business in general and try to compare our industry to 
manufacturing, or banking, or insurance, or . . . it just gets downright 
depressing.

     When Milton Bradley put out their mass-market version of Axis &
Allies, they kept it in print for a few years, but ultimately stopped production 
and decided to let what's left in the warehouse sell through. Why? Because 
it  "only" sold about 200,000 copies a year.

     Only.

     To put that in perspective, TSR might have -- might have -- sold
200,000 copies of one of their AD&D 2nd Ed. core rule books the year it 
came out. And there are probably a couple of Wizards of the Coast 
products that have broken that number. But no other adventure game 
company has ever sold 200,000 of anything in any one year. And that wasn't 
enough for Milton Bradley to keep the game in print.

     OK, so we're talking small business. Shoestring budgets. Low
salaries. So there better be some other perks. And believe me, there are.

     The hours are great. There are a few late nights (a throwback to
the old all-night gaming session days), but just try to find somebody in his 
office before 10 a.m. There are exceptions, but they're rare. The dress code 
is casual to non-existent, cool toys, posters, and games are everywhere, 
and the office conversation can range from military history to libertarianism 
to Star Trek. The people are smart, and fun, and share a common love for 
this really cool hobby.

     But the economics of it all are still there, a dark backdrop to all
this fun and games. Ultimately, the game industry can only support two 
kinds of workers:
     One is the owner-entrepeneur. He (or she) owns the company, or
designed a game that has grown into a successful line, or got in on the 
ground floor of a start-up and traded sweat for equity. They collect 
royalties or keep the profits, assuming there are any. It's much higher risk
than being a wage slave, but the rewards can be well worth it.
     The other is the entry-level employee. Just out of college, he (or
she) is willing to share a house with five friends, eat ramen noodles five 
times a week, and scrape by on a laughable salary -- because they're in the 
game business. It's a hobby they loved growing up, and now they have a
chance to actually make a living at it -- neat!

     And there's nothing wrong with doing something you love in a really
cool industry with some very nice perks and a laid-back corporate culture 
for a just-get-by salary. For a while. But a lifestyle that is perfectly 
acceptable at 22 starts to get a little old at 32, and downright silly at 42. A
salary that is perfectly acceptable for a young single (provided he likes 
ramen noodles) just won't cut it later on when the kids need braces, the 
house needs a new roof, and the car is dropping a quart of oil on the 
driveway every week.

     Another benefit I should mention, in all fairness -- these entry-level 
employees get a great deal of extremely valuable real-world experience, 
whether it be at graphic design, editing, project development, whatever. Of 
course, that experience is of little or no value within the industry -- it's only 
when you cash that experience in for a better-paying job in the real world 
that its value is realized.

     Because, sooner for some and later for others, most of these people
learn just what their newly-honed skills are worth in the real world, and they 
bolt. This means game companies must keep replacing and retraining much 
of their staff. But to be fair to the companies, the truth is that
such replacement and retraining, while frustrating, is still cheaper than 
paying experienced people what they're worth.

     But what about those of us who did hang on, didn't bail at the first 
opportunity? I'm afraid we're screwed.
     Prospects in the adventure game industry at a salary level our
experience and skills are worth are few and far between. And transitioning 
to another career, while possible, is much more difficult this many years 
down the line.

     To use myself as an example, I could go back to the newspaper
business, but I'd be back in the entry-level pool, working the copy desk with 
people 15 years younger, and that far behind on the advancement ladder. 
The bright new world of computer games? I'm afraid that ship has sailed -- 
the days when the computer game companies were hiring paper game 
designers right and left, with no computer game experience whatsoever, are 
over; believe me, I've checked. So, with the help of some career 
professionals, I'm trying to transition to another business entirely. It might 
be publishing-related, but I've learned an awful lot about product 
management, marketing, office management, and project coordination in the 
last 16 years -- who knows where those skills might land me?

     And what about full-time freelancing? There are a number of talented 
folks out there doing just that, hired guns who write for a number of 
companies and manage to put enough jobs together to get by. The ones I 
know all tend to have one thing in common -- a wife with a really good job. 
This is just a variation on the ramen paradigm, with more freedom of choice 
as to projects and the ultimate in freedom of workplace structure, but with 
constant money problems over everything from cash flow to non- and
slow-payers to the fun of self-employment taxes.
     Pass.

     Of course, I would never abandon the game industry altogether. I'll
always keep up with the industry, and continue to do small freelance gigs, 
like editing this fine magazine. But my future in the game industry? Like 
many others in my situation, I'm afraid it's quite limited.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Hi all.
Has anyone tried giving Magnamund monsters equivalents in the AD&D
Monstrous Manual? This is what I've got so far
Giaks: Goblins
Kraan: Umm, I'll get back to that one. :)
Helghasts: Ghasts are types of Ghoul, so I suppose it would be Ghoul.
Vordaks: Uh, Skeletons?
Shianti: Hmm, this is a complicated one. They seem to be a cross between
Native Americans and Celtic Sidhe (pro. "shee"). If you go by the early
Christian belief of anything non-Christian being satanic <grin>, the
Sidhe are demons. Therefore, Anti-Sidhe must be good. Anti-Sidhe,
Shianti? Geddit? :) (it's not in the MM, but y'know)

Well, I can't think of any more, but feel free to put in any comments
and stuff.
--
Luke Goaman-Dodson

> Hi all.
> Has anyone tried giving Magnamund monsters equivalents in the AD&D
> Monstrous Manual? This is what I've got so far
> Giaks: Goblins
> Kraan: Umm, I'll get back to that one. :)

How about Wyvern's

> Helghasts: Ghasts are types of Ghoul, so I suppose it would be Ghoul.

I would tend to think more along the lines of a Wight or Wraith,

> Vordaks: Uh, Skeletons?

I would think something perhaps more powerful like a ghoul at least.

> Shianti: Hmm, this is a complicated one. They seem to be a cross between
> Native Americans and Celtic Sidhe (pro. "shee"). If you go by the early
> Christian belief of anything non-Christian being satanic <grin>, the
> Sidhe are demons. Therefore, Anti-Sidhe must be good. Anti-Sidhe,
> Shianti? Geddit? :) (it's not in the MM, but y'know)
> 

Some sort of Demi-God, definately

> Well, I can't think of any more, but feel free to put in any comments
> and stuff.
> -- 
> Moon Hawk   

Try these perhaps

Doomwolf

An equivelent to a Dire Wolf

The Dragons

Take a wild guess, I probably would put Dragon

Gourgaz

A lizard man or Troglydite

Xagash

Another type of more powerful Lizard creature

Just my two kika

Sean-Robert Shaw
Grey Lord

Shianti are never said to be quite that immortal, as far as I can recall.
Although they have no pointed ears, they do remind me of an AD&D Elf.
Extremely long lifespan, spiritual, an intimate connection with magic and the
forces of nature.  For those of you who wish to draw a parallel, read
Evermeet: Island of the Elves, by Elaine Cunningham (TSR, 1998).  The
quasi-godlike nature depicted at the beginning of this book is almost a
perfect description of the Shianti.

Carl Reyes

Hi all,

> > > Vordaks: Uh, Skeletons?
> >
> > I would think something perhaps more powerful like a ghoul at least.
>
>Or maybe zombie?

   I don't think so : Vordaks are inteligent beings (at least vivious !) but 
zombie and skeletons are not ! Let's think something more powerfull ('cause 
of its psychic strength) such as wight ...

> > Xagash
> >
> > Another type of more powerful Lizard creature
>
>Possibly a saurial?  Although AD&D Saurials tend to be somewhat peaceful
>(Forgotten Realms), there are exceptions, such as the saurial race on Krynn
>(Dragonlance).  I forget the exact name for them, but they are big, mean, 
>and
>far more powerful that Troglodytes.

  You may think to Drakonians ... There many kind of them, some flying and 
other not ... some with extra powers (spells ...) but in my opinion, 
lizardmen arre the best choice : On DL they may have levels and become up to 
12 th level fighter !

  As i said before (yesterday) the best option is to create them from the 
beginning, what i did for my players ... This allow you to develop the axtra 
capacities of each monoster specificaly ! (i made rules for psychic strength 
in this scheme).
  If so has done sth about this, let's send (or if he puts on the net, let's 
say it !).

At least, a question : Dwarves do exist on Magnamund (coming from Bor) but 
elves ? I think they don't, is it true ?

Have a good day,

Foreign Knight
Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT

AD&D counterparts for creatures I have so far....

Quatol (GS bboks)?

I believe there is a similar frog creature (though more intelligent) in
the Planescape setting.... hmm.

Mantiz - Giant Mantis (obviously), though, some explaining would have to
be done to explain Darklord Gnaag, wouldn't there? (some sort of
lubricant, perhaps...)
Carl Reyes

IMHO Giaks ARE strong.  If you read any text (Legends or Gamebooks) Giaks a
terrifying to the average peasant!  Especially the Mountain Giaks spawned in
Helgedad.

My thoughts would be they are very strong (The Magnamund Companion states that
their bone structure is twice the strength of a human), but it is their
intelligence that lets them down and costs them respect.  Any trained fighter
can spot their weaknesses and exploit them.

Gavin Gallot

Has anyone noticed how the symbol of Brotherhood of the Crystal Star is
like the pentangle or the Star of David (but more like the pentangle),
and the crescent is like the Muslim Crescent? Also, Toran sounds like
both Koran and Torah. Weeird, isn't it.

Gourgaz is Giak for "cold enemy". Everyone knew that probably. :)

Speaking of which, are there any Giaks, Drakkar or other things left on
Magnamund? I sort of miss them. :)  
-- 
Luke Goaman-Dodson

Actually, I hadn't noticed that before.  It does make you wonder if their gis a
connection.

Speaking of the Giaks, Drakkar, and other minions of the ex-Darklords, they
still are around, even after book 20.  In book #25 you and Lone Wolf have a
particularly nasty encounter with these characters and one of the many different
leaders of their ilk.  It doesn't particularly say anything about the Giaks
(though there are tons of Drakkar in it), but I would suppose from previous
books in the Grandmaster Series that they have not completely died off as of yet
either.

Sean-Robert Shaw

Yeah, doesn't it say in one of the GM books (15 i think) that the
Nadziranim are still spawning them? And the drakkarim are an natural,
non-spawned race so they would not die out just because there is no one
left to spawn them.

Sam Bowker

Hello,

There are many regiments in the Giak army (Gorakim, Konkorim, Kaggazheg,
etc), but is there any indication to what part of the darklands these
regiments belong to?  Example: Do the "Nanenrakim" regiment of giaks
predominantly occupy the area around Kaag?

Also the Magnamund Compaion seems to indicate that giaks have definite
physical differences between regiments.  For example, the "Nadul-nakim"
(nightfighters) are illustrated with exceptionally large eyes for night
vision.  The "Orgadak-Taagim" (Human killers) appear more lizardlike.  Are
there any references to this anywhere?

Finally, I find the illustrative differences between Gary Chalk and Brian
Williams interesting.  The giaks in the early books were more ugly and
scrawny, while later giaks were short and very muscular.  I'm not sure which
style of giak I prefer.
Any comments, or knoweldge anyone willing to share on these subjects?
Thanks
Jason Gaerke

Well, if you go strictly by what the books say, they are a combination of the two
descriptions.  Ugly and brutish, but also scrawny and short.  this is evidenced
by the fact that although they fight, they are also held as slaves and used for
cannon fodder.  Somehow, however, they do not strike me (from description and
behavior) as remarkably muscular or robust, else they would probably be held in
higher esteem (or at the very least respect).  Dwarves are incredibly strong and
muscular, and other races know better to tangle with them.  Giaks are.....
giaks.  Exactly what the name conjures in your mind the first time you hear it
(cat upchucking a hairball for me).

Once again the goblin of AD&D lore comes to mind.

Carl Reyes

I know that Gary Chalk is considered to be the "classic" Lone Wolf artist,
but I must confess that Brian Williams is by far my favorite fantasy artist.
I'm sure that will get some responses from you all!!!

Skarn

Luke wrote:
> 
> What would you *really* like to see in future Lone Wolf books that might
> be published (I hope so)? I'd like to see a meeting between LW and GS.
> They are the two great heroes of Northern and Southern Magnamund,
> respectively of course, so it's unlikely that they wouldn't have heard
> of one another. Maybe this could solve the mysterious disappearance of
> GS in 22 (I'm sure this has said before. if so, apologies to the person
> who did:).
> --
> 29-32 Hawk

For my part I would like to see a confrontation with Agarash the Damned.
Somebody releases him from the prison/plane the Elder Magi encaged him
in, and well I think you can guess the rest. Agarash begins restoring
Naaros and create new runes of power. His legions of Agarashi
steam-rolls Southern Maganumnd. A few missions to help friendly
neighbours, and then a titanic struggle against him...

Robert Ekblad

I wouldn't mind seeing LW travel outside of the main continent (Kalte
doesn't count) to a distant land on a quest that might or might not
have its origins near home., but I'd take anything that Dever would
have to offer us.

Steve Farrar

Hi all.  This is my first posting on the list, so I thought I'd give 
you a brief account of who I am and what my interest in FF is.  That 
might allow for some further discussion and provide an insight into 
why I say what I do.  Anyway, I live in South Africa where FF was 
quite big in the late 80's and early 90's (I'm nearly 23, so I got 
involved in the late 80's).  I had access to FF books in the public 
libraries and bookshops and today still have quite good access to 
used and (believe it or not) new copies of the books.  I'm something 
of the collector type myself, so I buy whatever I can get my hands 
on, even if I don't like what I get (re: Michael Taylor).  Some more 
biography: I am a Masters student in Philosophy at Rhodes University 
in Grahamstown.  Currently we are holding an international conference 
on Racism and the Challenges of Multiculturalism, with some big names 
involved.  While falling asleep through some of the papers, it 
occurred to me that there is much to be said about FF in this regard.

I'm not talking about the demographics of the readership here, 
although I can assure you that it is predominantly white (as I am).  
Rather, I'm more interested in the way that race is treated in the FF 
world as I can tell from the books I have.  Much of Titan is 
predicated on the real world; locations have been borrowed from 
Central Asia and ancient Mesopotamia; while the actual 
geography/culture/history matrix is clearly based on this world.  
Think of China and Japan (Isles of Dawn and Hachiman; the Easterner 
from FF21); think of the nomadic peoples of the Desert of Skulls and 
those who dwell around the Inland Sea (Middle East/Arab world).  
Think too of the way that in general the adventures take place in 
areas of Titan (the most important areas it seems) that are based on 
Northern/North-West Europe (NW Allansia).  Now, I realise that the 
home market of FF was the UK; and that the readership in countries 
such as  Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, Canada and the USA are 
English-speaking and have an historically English culture by and 
large.  In SA, of course, it was mainly people of the same general 
description who had the economic/cultural/intellectual capital to 
read FF.  So I'm not making a claim that FF should have been 
published in Afrikaans (the other European language of SA); neither 
am i claiming that the heroes ought to have come from a clear African 
background (like Mirage in Magic the Gathering).  What my concern is, 
is that the depiction of races other than the morphologically white 
race is imbedded in a historical perception of Africa that ought not 
to be propagated.  Examples, you ask?  Take the "native" tribes found 
on the Isle of Despair and Fire Island - they're black (in the 
illustrations).  Depictions of pygmies (look in Out of the Pit) show 
them as blacks.  These groups tend to be portrayed as headhunters and 
as living in jungles (or sometimes deep forests).  I say 'tend' with 
some reservation, since there isn't much of a black appearance in FF 
at all.  About the best instantiation of it is the Southerner 
(imagine that) in FF21, whom you have to kill to continue (imagine 
that).  If this is bad, then consider the plight of 
aboriginal/native/indigenous groups such as the 'Indians' of the 
Americas or the Subcontinent, neither of whom seem to get a showing 
at all (unless you maybe think that the Panther Warriors in FF31 are 
Aztecs, or maybe Indian or deliberately nebulous).  i wonder if this 
is all simply a function of marketing; or whether it shows a lack of 
broad cultural imagination; or whether it was thought that these 
alternative paradigms just had nothing to offer?  Perhaps somebody 
needs to detail Arantis as Egypt and maybe create a new nation 
fighting the Lizard Man Empire in Southern Allansia.  Perhaps it 
would be interseting to look at the other world in FF37 for a 
cross-cultural adventuring experience.  

Anyway, well done if you waded through all that.  It's not meant as a 
rant (the books come from a cultural/historical perspective which is 
much the same as mine), but I think there are interesting questions 
to be asked (why could Paul Mason set adventures in the now 
Westernized Far East; and not John Smith in Ethiopia?) and there's 
plenty of room left for thoughts and explanations.  

Cheers
Sean Ramsden

> Did you know that there is at least one European Style of Martial At? I
> believe is is practiced by Jean-Claude VanDamme.
The style of fighting that you are referring to is Savate (I think). It's a
french sport sort of like kick boxing.

> Given that thought, does the
> fighting style have to be eastern at all???
That's my point. Most asian fighting disciplines are highly stylized,
whereas Western fighters didn't always attempt to practice a way of fighting
to the exclusion of other techniques. The big exception is of course boxing.

The fighting cultures of Europe and Asia have always been very interesting
to me, undoubtedly because of Lone Wolf, and I find it ironic how Westerners
seem to know more about the martial cultures of the east than they do of
their own culture.

Swordsmanship is a classic example. How many times have you heard how the
samurai were matchless in a sword fight? Or how the fighting skill of
medieval knights was nothing but crude hacking and slashing? Not to take
anything away from the samurai, but I doubt this is the case at all. I am
sure that the Italian fencers or the Knights Templar were all just as
skilful, maybe even more so, thanks to the much greater variety of opponents
that they had.

The difference is, that most Asian countries are really into tradition and
keeping their past alive, whereas western cultures tend to move on as soon
as something more effective comes along.

Having said that, I doubt anybody would doubt the effectiveness of a Kai
Grand Master wielding a broadsword!!!!!!!!

Skarn

This all depends, of course, on whether you believe that Dever drew strictly on
history for his world.

Most writers draw on the works of others to inspire them.  This isn't plagarism,
but it does lead to similarities.  Drizzt Do'Urden comes to mind as a dedicated
Western swordsman from the Forgotten Realms setting (TSR), but his first
appearance was well after LW, so he would obviously not be the source.  Still,
you get the point.  Elves in many works are not the tiny, winged people
currently on TV.  They are incredibly ancient, powerful, mysterious, unmatched
sowrdsman, magical.  Seems like LW with pointed ears?

True, these elves were drawn from mythology (probably Norse), but you get the
idea.

The fact that LW performs kata every day and fights with elegance instead of
hack-and-slash is interesting, but not suggestive.  True, the Eastern sowrdsman
of medieval times were far more elegant than their European counterparts, but
this does not mean LW was drawn off them.  LW was probably inspired by the
fantasy fiction Dever read, which was inturn inspired by other books, legends,
folklore, and mythology.  To try to draw a direct line from the knights templar,
or the samurai, is fun, but probably not very accurate.  That LW is original I
certainly do not doubt, but creating new races, worlds, and even ways of
thought, are daunting tasks at best.  Most goblins, elves, dwarves, fairies,
dragons, and other fantasy races and characters are nearly identical from one
author to the next, one publishing house to the next.  This may seem like
laziness, but it is actually a comforting sense of continuity.  LW's fighting
style seems like a combination based on a combination, based on yet another
combination.

Of course, i could be wrong.  Dever might have spent a few years in the Orient
and come up with it all himself.....

Carl Reyes

I think that weaponskill as intended by JD, is the western combat style of
medieval knights or templars, the fact that LW does kata every morning does
not mean that actually his way of combat is of the oriental kind. I mean, a
friend of mine practices "escrima", that is the western way of use weapons
codified since medieval age and that embraces weapons used during the middle
ages, the renaissance and the following century, he also does  what we can
call "kata" but definetly he does not study eastern martial arts. On the other
side, I think that what can get closer LW style to the eastern martial arts is
its relations with the weapons itself. For the samurai, the Budo was not only
a combat styile, but a martial code, a way of life, of behaviour, the swords
is not only the weapons that could save their life, but the medium that can
take them to illumination, to Nirvana and therefore, even if they died they
were victorious as well, since was not the victory they were searching but
illumination. Here is the point. While merely on the combat side I think LW is
totally west oriented, I think that his relation with his weapons,  especially
with the Sommerswerd, is most spiritual such eastern knights. Also I think
that you can see the difference between the Northern Magnamund weapons and the
Southern Magnamund ones. For example in #28 you can find very exotic weapons
which in previous book were not mentioned. Also if you read GS you can notice
an exotic atmosphere in the first book. So I think that an eastern way of life
ant then of combat is to assume preferebly for the Southern Magnamund than for
Northern. Anyway these are just my opinion, but I think this is a very
interesting point on LW to discuss on.

Matteo Udina

Actually i think Jean-Claude uses Muay Thai kickboxing... if you ever heard
of an actor named Olivier Gruner? (He does straight to video movies) He uses
Savate...

    Shizukana Wolf

An important thing to note about the sword-fighting
ability of Samurai V western knights is this:

Samurai swords were a class far above any western
swords.  The Japanese were able to create the closest
thing to an alloy as existed at the time.  As I
understand it, two types of metal were forged together
- one for sharpness and one for strength.  The result
was a extremely light, sharp and well balanced sword.

Western knights were forced to contend with massively
heavy swords in battle, so could not be as elegant. 
They may have been extremely good with sabres, but
these have no use outside of duels.

Bold Strider
Ryan O'Sullivan

Am I the only one who just thinks that Weaponskill is Joe Dever's way of
awarding combat pluses to weak characters early in Lone Wolf Books and that
it was never anything that was supposed to be thought out too much? I mean,
it's one thing that the world of Lone Wolf is so drawn out and thought out
and planned...but when you are making a gamebook like that, when he was
making his skills he probably said "what kind of bonuses do i want my skills
to give the characters?" then wrote them down and gave a name to each
"skill" that could give the character the bonus he wanted. I don't think he
thought of a whole lot of background behind the actual history of the skills
or the derivation of the skills. The skills were mainly just names to
abilities and bonuses...
    If you want to abstract the skill into what it might actually represent
in a real-life type setting...to give it more meaning...then it can be
interpreted many ways. Maybe it just means Lone Wolf practices more than
anyone else at using his weapon. Maybe it means he knows martial arts or
ninjitsu or something, in which you are taught to master the use of various
weapons (hmmm, just maybe?) in addition to learning how to fight with your
bare hands before you gain rank.
    Just my 2 cents...

Jason Leonard

Samurai swords had a core of soft steel (to absorb shocks), and a covering
layer of hard steel to get a razor edge. The typical sword of a western
knight was usually cruciform (in the image of the cross), and had to be
heavy, so that they could penetrate the superior armour that the westerners
wore. However, not all western swords were huge hulking things. There were
some smaller ones too.

It seems strange though, how Lone Wolf, who relies on stealth more than
brute force, would devote so much time into mastering the two handed
broadsword. Having said that, I guess it would be a lot easier killing a
Gourgaz with a broadsword than with a short sword.

By the way, I noticed in the back of one of my old LW books that there is an
advertisement for LW models. Did any of you fellow Kai Lords ever pick any
up????

Skarn

apanese blades are somewhat of a personal fascination. The swords you
describe are at the cheaper end of the spectrum. At the other end, great
lengths were taken historically in creating swords with a balance
between flexibility and the ability to keep an edge.

Layers of soft and hard steel were folded over and over upon themselves
to create something similar to Damascus steel (only better). The best
sword makers like Masamune would create swords with literally thousands
of alternating layers of hard and soft steel.

Next, in the tempering process, the blade would be coated with varying
thicknesses of clay. More clay would be applied to the back of the blade
(away from the edge). Less clay was applied to the edge. When the blade
was heated, the thick clay on the back would keep the metal cool whereas
the edge would become hotter because it was less protected. The blade
would then be quenched. The blade edge would become hard and would keep
its sharpness. The back would be softer and would absorb the shock of
colliding with an opponent.

In this way, a katana would be the oprimum balance between soft/dull and
hard/brittle. I have only described briefly the elaborate and beautiful
process used to create the world's premier blades.

Back to working on the Oasis...
Jon Blake

Does anyone know if Ragadorn is under Durenor or Sommerlund or is it a
city-state?
And then what about the Wildlands?

Benjamin Johnson

Ragadorn is a city-state (in loose terms) under the control of Lachlan the
Overlord.  The surrounding wildlands i guess would also fall under his control,
but the rest of the wildlands are ruled over at all i would guess.  Who would
want them.

However, then, who rules the small towns like Gorn Cove?

Gavin Gallot

Ragadorn is a self-governed city-state.  The Wildlands are just that, wild, 
not under the direct control of either Durenor OR Sommerlund.  <shrug>  It's 
just sort of an empty space, politically, between the two nations.  Of 
course, the Wildlands being wastelands, there really isn't anything worth 
controlling there.

-Brian Norshire

Hi all,

Look out! A new member has arrived! My name is Svein, a full fledged
Norwegian (the first on this list?). I've been a FF fan for years --
actually since '85, when my eyes first fell on the Norwegian translation of
"Warlock of Firetop Mountain". I've been playing & enjoying the books ever
since, and apart from some issues of Warlock and a few novelty items (like
the yearbook & poster book that most people seem to miss), my collection is
as complete as it can be. :-)

I've been online since '93, and have occationally looked around on the net
for FF resources, but never found anything until a few weeks ago, when I
discovered a FF site. This finally led me to FF.com, which led me to this
mailinglist. After checking out the various websites and listening in on the
conversation for a bit, now the time has come for me to step out of the pit.
I'm glad to be here and look forward to discussing FF with you all!

My wife Jenn has of course been introduced to the series, and seems to enjoy
the books very much. She'll no doubt be reading all the posts too, and might
post from time to time. So that's even another female on the list, since
there has been recent mentions of that. :-)

A little trivia about the Norwegian gamebooks might be in order. (Or maybe
not, but I'm going to pass it on anyway.) The FAQ at FF.com does not list
Norway among the countries where translations of FF has been released, and I
can confirm that we have had some translations published here. The first
three FF books were published in Norwegian by Schibsted in 1985-86, and I
know that more books were planned, but these plans were put on hold for some
reason (low sales? I've no clue).

"the Warlock of Firetop Mountain" was published in '85 as "Skatten i
Monsterfjellet" (which roughly translates into "the Treasure of Monster
Mountain" for those interested).

"Citadel of Chaos" was published in '86 as "Kaosborgen" (literal
translation).

"Forest of Doom" was published in '86 as "Hammeren I Monsterskogen" (or "the
Hammer In the Monster Forest").

OK, enough trivia for now. (Definately more later, though! ;-)

Cheers,
Svein

Well, since you know about PTK, I'd assume you already have the Titan book...
But in case you don't, and for the benefit of anyone else on the list who cares,
here's what it says...

In the heart of the Forest of Yore in the settled part of southern Allansia,
near...Salamonis (which is actually in the northern half of the continent, near
Port Blacksand), there is the school of the Grand Wizard of Yore.  Founded over
150 years ago by Vermithrax Moonchaser...Has trained a great many sorcerers.
About 55 years ago, his classes were blessed by the presence of three star
pupils: Gereth Yaztromo, the son of a priest from Salamonis; Arakor Nicodemus,
whose father was a rich merchant in Fang; and Pen Ty Kora, a peculiar fellow
from distant Arantis (a province in the south west of Allansia, flanked by the
Desert of Skulls and the Snakelands, containing the cities of Kaynlesh-Ma, Halak
and Rimon), whose father was...'Chief Overseer of Scriveners to the
Overpriest'...

Pen Ty Kora - a short, dark-skinned man who spoke with an unusual accent and who
used to perform the most peculiar combinations of spells, to great effect -
traveled south again...where he became an initiate of the temple of the earth
goddess (assumedly Throff) in Kaynlesh-Ma.  There he learnt the peculiar
southern healing magic.  In time, healing magic became his specialty, and as he
traveled the world, heading slowly but surely back to the northlands, he became
known simply as the Healer to those who came to him for cures.

The text in this message is copyrighted 1986, Marc Gascoigne, Steve Jackson &
Ian Livingstone...

Jason Williams

Oh, surely there's room for all kinds of discussions related to FF on this
list, ranging from religion/racism in Titan to more informative or
fact-digging ones? You name it, I'll be up for it. :-)

So, to kick it off, here's a trivia question: Does anyone know why "Vault of
the Vampire" and "Fangs of Fury" (#38 and 39) were unnumbered? At least my
copies lacks the numbers on them...

Cheers,
Svein

I would guess that Puffin were at one stage considering dropping the numbers
altogether. All my FF books *are* numbered, but I remember that, after
a period in which I hadn't been collecting FF for a while and found
that a lot of new books had been published in the meantime, I had to
do a lot of searching to locate a copy of Star Strider with a numeral on
the spine (just so that it would match all the other, numbered books that I 
then had). I think I also remember once finding an unnumbered edition of
Rings of Kether, and noticing that all the rest of the FF series was listed
inside without numbers as well (merely titles). So, perhaps someone in
Puffin just thought it would be a clever idea to dump the numbers and 
then immediately changed their mind (when they realised that it wasn't,
actually, a clever idea; at least, the numbers are an easy way of checking
which books you have, and help give each book a sense of place within
the series as a whole, I think).

Graham Hart

Some of the books aren't numbered, but my copies of #38 and #39 were. I
have no idea what the pattern might be, although later printings (as
suggested) is probably the case.

Mark J. Popp

My copies of "Vault of the Vampire" (#38) and "Fangs of Fury" (#39) are
definately first printings (by Puffin Books, UK), and without numbers. The
mystery spreads... did they add the numbers later? Which printing# are
yours? And just how many books (or specific printings of books) lack a
number anyway?

Calling all FF sleuths. :-)

Cheers,
Svein

I think they are third printings. Only a few in my collection lack numbers,
but I have *seen* quite a few others that didn't have any numbers. If you
think that's weird, my copy of Siege of Sardath has no title on the front
of the book.

Mark J. Popp

I can say with certainty that I have FF1-59 and they are *all* numbered.
However, it would appear that, for a brief period, the series was published
without numbers, which may therefore apply in some cases to first
printings of certain books, and in other cases only to later printings.
I'm sure it could only have been for a brief period that this happened,
though, because the vast majority of FF books that I have ever seen *are*
numbered.

Still, here's a *fun* project for any FF fan with time on his/her hands:
try to deduce as accurately as possible the dates between which Puffin
was publishing or reprinting FF books without numbering them (actually,
this is something that the most serious FF collectors would indeed
probably want to know, if they were concerned to compile an exhaustive
publishing history of FF, detailing all printings, changes of cover,
and so on).

After that, of course, you can try to persuade your friends that 
that numberless FF book sitting on your shelf is not merely a curious
aberration, or anomalous footnote to the history of FF, but in fact a
super-rare collectors' item!

Graham Hart

Greetings all;)

Yes there was a time when no numbers were printed on the FF books, the print 
runs went like this.....(i'm pretty sure)

Zigzag top
Gold Letters with number on top right front cover and number on spine
Gold Letters with no numbers
Gold Letters with number on spine only
Black Letters with numbers on spine only

I'm just finishing off my web page and I'll have full size scans of off the 
different books in my collection, this should be finished in a week or so;)

Brett Easterbrook

I heard that some publishers feel that if you number a series on the cover,
it discourages people from buying them because then they feel they have to
buy the whole series....

Michael Taylor

I don't know (why FF went without numbers for a while), but I have a similar question for you:

On the 'jagged green' editions, why was the number on #16 Seas of Blood
printed in black, while the others were printed in white?

philip.mills

Hello all,

In a similar vein to recent postings about numbers on the side of Fighting
Fantasy books, I have noticed some diferences in the little puffins on the
side. The vast majority of my books have the puffin emblem, but a few
exceptions exist.

First, my copies of Temple of Terror and Chasms of Malice possess no
'puffins', and my copy of Khare: Cityport of Traps has a penguin. Most
strange of all are my two copies of Spectral Stalkers. They both have
puffins but they are facing the back cover (facing the left) unlike all the
others which face to the right (towards the front cover).

Oh, and by the way, there appears to be (at least in my collection) no
correlation between lacking a puffin and lacking a number.

Okay, maybe not *that* interesting, but strange nonetheless.

Ta.

Richard Stanton

My copies of #38 and #39 have numbers on the back, but my copies of #27 and 
#29 don't, so i suppose that at one stage they stopped printing numbers on 
the back, and then started again.

Lachlan Austin

#57 is widely regarded as the most disappointing FF, so maybe it's not worth
bothering with. I have a couple of copies myself, though. As for the 
Warlocks, I also
possess a couple of the ones you mention, though all but one are 7000 miles 
away.
Perhaps your patience will be rewarded.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason
Outlaws/imazine http://www.tcp-ip.or.jp/~panurge

I think you're being a bit hard on yourself Paul. Magehunter was pretty good 
and very weird, especially in the right frame of mind. I particularly liked 
the story teller's sequence at the end, where, without any warning, you 
suddenly find yourself caught up in Tales of the Arabian Nights. Certainly 
more interesting than Keith Martin or Luke Sharp's later efforts. Fangs of 
Fury anyone?

cheers

andy wright

>I think you're being a bit hard on yourself Paul.

Oh, I'm not being hard on myself. Magehunter is pretty well the only FF book I 
actually like. I was simply reporting the conclusions of others.

>Magehunter was pretty good 
>and very weird, especially in the right frame of mind. I particularly liked 
>the story teller's sequence at the end, where, without any warning, you 
>suddenly find yourself caught up in Tales of the Arabian Nights. Certainly 
>more interesting than Keith Martin or Luke Sharp's later efforts. Fangs of 
>Fury anyone?

One of the few I have, I seem to recall, though I'm not sure why. By the way, I 
think Keith Martin is actually Carl Sargeant's pseudonym, from the time when 
he was too embarrassed about writing FF. Can't say I understand why: he was 
writing D&D and all kinds of similar stuff at the time.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

I for one was very surprised to see this! Not only because I highly enjoyed
playing this book both on a "basic" FF level, but also as I found it to be
full of highly original twists and turns (as the mentioned dream sequence)
and as it had quite a few interesting ideas.  I was sure that it was the SF
gamebooks (at least some of them) that were the least popular ones in the
series - or at least less interesting than the books set in the Titan world.

Then again, I haven't been active in online FF fandom very long, so I have
no clue what the general consensus on the books is. I still find it unlikely
that someone would hold Magehunter as the most disappointing FF book -
seriously.

I for one thought that the entire concept of "magehunting" (including the
rules of how to 'spot' a Mage in the beginning of the book) was so cool that
I used the same idea in one of my own RPG-campaigns. It was a great success.
Many of the best FF books have inspired me similarly and resulted in great
adventures.

I think "Magehunter" is one of the best books in the last half of the
series, at least. I personally wouldn't hesitate in recommending it to
anyone who doesn't have it -- I would rate it 9 out of 10!

>As for the Warlocks, I also possess a couple of the ones you mention,
though all but one are >7000 miles away. Perhaps your patience will be
rewarded.

Oh my! ACTUAL copies of WARLOCK that Svein misses! Svein gets very excited!

As futile as the question probably is, since most of us probably miss
several issues, I still have to ask: Does anyone have a spare copy of #
3-13? Please contact me. (Sorry to clutter the list with that, but now I've
done it and can move on.)

Cheers,
Svein

Not strictly Fighting Fantasy, but very close:

I am currently preparing, as an experiment, to publish my first electronic format 
gamebook, working with Dave Morris. The first book will be the Virtual Reality 
gamebook 'Heart of Ice' (the rights having reverted to the author).

The book will be done in PDF format, which I hope will be acceptable to just about 
everyone except Robert La Vallie. What I'm interested in, as I work on preparing the 
thing, is what you punters would be looking for in such a book. Obviously, there are 
a variety of technical tricks that can be employed (of which the most basic is 
replacing paragraph numbers with hyperlinks), but the more technology is employed, 
the more it becomes less of a gamebook, and more of a crude adventure game. So 
I'm interested in any opinions on what _you_ would look for in an electronic format 
gamebook.

We would be aiming to sell individual books online. Once we'd published a few, we'd 
also be making the whole lot available on CD-Rom. If it takes off, that is.

And folks, I hate to have to break this to you, but we wouldn't be able to put any 
numbers on the spines...

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

I've no idea what might or might not make most commercial sense, but my
personal preference would be for online gamebooks simply as text gamebooks
delivered by a different medium. I always enjoyed gamebooks *as* gamebooks,
and the "book" part more so than the "game" (though dice-rolling is not
without its attractions, I admit, if kept down to a sensible level), so
I wouldn't be much excited by the thought of the online gamebook mutating
into little more than a "crude adventure game", as you say... particularly
since I've always harboured a suspicion that printed gamebooks suffered
from being perceived by non-fans either as cheap computer-game substitutes
or nothing more than introductory role-playing.

My ideal gamebook would be something like an interactive novel, woven from
interconnecting numbered paragraphs (or the hyperlink online equivalent, 
though I confess a dewy-eyed nostalgia for the numbers themselves), and 
granting maximum freedom for the reader to trace out his or her own narrative
trajectory, aided by some transparently simple "game system" (whether
skill-based, or depending on dice-rolls or their equivalent, I wouldn't
much mind).

So, sorry for my lack of imagination (I'll come back if something ignites
a spark of inspiration), but basically I'd hope that online gamebooks
would be much like printed gamebooks, only more profitable, and easier
to produce independently of mainstream publishers so that authors would
be freer of limitations on length, content, and style.

Graham Hart

It should also be pointed out to Crystal that the current series is
planned to go at least through Book 32. Book 28 just happens to be the most
recent release. Where things go from there, who knows though.
    The hardest books to find are Book 18, 20 (US versions), 22 and 23. Book
22 is on the top of the list. Of all the books, it had the fewest copies
printed and at the time Lone Wolf was not in as much demand as it has been
recently. We can only hope for reprints, just as the earlier Lone Wolf books
have been reprinted a few times.
    Of course Books 21+ are only available from the UK though (Joe Dever
being from the UK). So to get them, unless you live in the UK, you must use
an online UK bookstore to obtain them...but I will let you know now that
they do not tie in with the Lone Wolf saga of books 1-20 that you are
currently familiar with. They follow the training of a new order of Kai
Warriors, and Lone Wolf is no longer the main focus or hero (but still plays
a good role in each book) as he has graduated to the highest Kai ranks and
saved Magnamund more times than anyone can count already...
    Also, just so you know - unless my friend plans to pay me $40-some, I
have Books 1-12 US available, if you're interested in buying them. I
dunno...he did mention that he has come up with some plan to make lots of
money and he plans to pay me for the books and upgrade his computer. We'll
see...

Jason Leonard

Don't forget the Magnamund Companion. It's almost as rare as LW22.

Sam Bowker